• Isaac
    3.1k
    The argument of " healthcare services have been stripped to the bone and the scraps sold to the highest bidder" might hold true in one national example, but to argue that ALL NATIONS have gone this route is false.ssu

    Really? What nation did you have in mind whose health service is run primarily with the health of the nation in mind, without demands of greater efficiency being laid on it to either increase profits or reduce government expenditure, whose health industry is not suffuse with influence from multi-national pharmaceutical companies? I may well like to move there.
  • Tzeentch
    835
    Deal with it? I think we've already established you're the one who is having a hard time accepting the fact that other views exist. And that is your problem, not mine.

    Projection seems to be becoming a theme in our conversation, no?
  • Punshhh
    2.1k
    I'm not happy about a virus. I'm also not overly worried. People should relax, newsmedia should stop scaring old people, and the experts should just do their thing.

    You don't seem to have much understanding of humanity. After all we are primates with a complex social and economic structure with a long history of warfare, exploitation, poverty, genocide etc etc. All that is required to upset the relative equilibrium we have enjoyed over the last 70 years, in the West at least, is something like a global pandemic.

    There is an acute tension developing between healthcare objectives and economic objectives in many countries. Both are experiencing great loses, with catastrophe just around the corner. Those sitting on great wealth, or in ivory towers will be getting worried to the extent that they will stop caring about the vulnerable and the old.

    There are rumours going around the UK that the government is secretly happy that many thousands of old people will die, saving a great deal of expenditure in health and social care, as a vast social care crisis was looming before Covid, due to a population with to many old people.

    The debt bubble could fracture at any time now, as the economy feels like it is on a rollercoaster with no controls.

    Are you going to bury your head in the sand, or remember what humans are like when the pips squeak?
  • Mayor of Simpleton
    620
    Maybe it's just worse due to the vacation?frank

    They were able thru network theory and contact tracing to identify the many origins and source of the new clusters... over 80% were linked to the vacations themselves and activities where the vacationers upon their return came into further contact with social grouping... most of the grouping also in violation of a whole number of guidelines and rules.

    While indeed there were mild cases that went undetected that wasn't the real catalyst for this shit show.

    btw... the vacationers were not just younger people at beaches. The elderly have taken up the charge to 'spread the good word' by bus vacations as usual. It's a collective failure.

    Apparently, 'human nature' is a COVID-19 risk-factor.180 Proof

    There's no cure for the willfully stupid. To be honest, I'm not too sure how to prevent it.

    I have to say one things I've noticed in all of the 'freedom at all costs' apologetic replies...

    ... 'existential crisis' has really been dumbed down in the past few years.

    'Give me convenience even if it gives them death'.
  • Isaac
    3.1k
    There are rumours going around the UK that the government is secretly happy that many thousands of old people will die, saving a great deal of expenditure in health and social care, as a vast social care crisis was looming before Covid, due to a population with to many old people.Punshhh

    This seems incredibly implausible to me.

    1. The majority of the Tory vote is in the older population, they'd be killing off their own support.
    2. The costs of their response are predicted, even by their own think tanks to far exceed the temporary and minor drop in pressure on the social care budget.
    3. The biggest threat to the social care budget comes not in the form of the current elderly and vulnerable, but the immediate future elderly and vulnerable coupled with a relatively smaller working age population.
  • 180 Proof
    2k
    'Give me convenience even if it gives them death'.Mayor of Simpleton
    :confused:
  • Punshhh
    2.1k
    I hear you, but I'm not so confident that they engage in any joined up thinking.

    One would think that the Tory's would want to keep their older voters alive to keep voting for them. But that relies on some kind of normal political balance, like what we have experienced over the last generation. In reality, I suggest, the Tory's are grappling with an existential crisis, in which they can see the younger vote abandoning them and their reliable voter base inexorably dying off. Resulting in their only hope of survival as a political force requiring them to veer hard to the right and hope to convince the population that that place is normality, while the left are communist lunatics. This course relies on a healthy economy. It is of course doomed to failure, now.
  • Isaac
    3.1k
    I hear you, but I'm not so confident that they engage in any joined up thinking.Punshhh

    Ah, yes. I made the mistake of presuming any rational basis behind this clown-show of a government... As it is I'm now prepared to entertain that they might have any of a dozen crackpot theories behind their 'strategy'. UFOs may even feature.
  • Baden
    10.9k


    :lol: I'm not exactly enamoured of your opinions either but at least you have a sense of humour. :kiss:
  • Punshhh
    2.1k
    Dominic Cummings is Davros, the leader of the Darleks.
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    7.6k
    I have to say one things I've noticed in all of the 'freedom at all costs' apologetic replies...

    ... 'existential crisis' has really been dumbed down in the past few years.

    'Give me convenience even if it gives them death'.
    Mayor of Simpleton

    It's an interesting experiment, how so many people will give up moral responsibility at the drop of a hat, for the sake of insignificant pleasure. It seems like if one individual person does not follow the rules, for the sake of "freedom", then the next will see this transgression as an excuse not to follow the rules, quickly producing a cascade, until a large portion of society falls into that hole. Monkey see monkey do.
  • ssu
    3.3k

    I think your answer points out fairly well just what happens.

    And if the virus infection rates have been low (as here in Finland), then there is the factor of a single event turning the stats up. One example of this happened in a small city called Vaasa located in Northern Finland. The city has a small university and of course, as usual, it was a large student party that was the reason for the spreader event. Some time later the city turned red with all indicators with over 600 new infections in a region with typically well below 100 cases since the start of the pandemic. The city went to lock-down and forbid any meetings over 10 people.

    Yet I think the ordinary flu season has caused people to be alarmed as anybody showing signs of flu will typically take a corona test. My son in school said he had a sore throat and off he went home and to take a virus test. Schools are easily shut down if there is a covid-positive case. A lot of people have been off from work to be getting a test, hence I assume these usually negative tests will keep people on guard.
  • ssu
    3.3k
    Really? What nation did you have in mind whose health service is run primarily with the health of the nation in mind, without demands of greater efficiency being laid on it to either increase profits or reduce government expenditure, whose health industry is not suffuse with influence from multi-national pharmaceutical companies? I may well like to move there.Isaac
    Likely the countries that score the highest points in various studies with the public health sector.

    Japan for example has a quite well performing health care sector and it has scored in many investigation top places with it's health care sector compared to others. And it's doing just fine with the pandemic: see How Japan’s Universal Health Care System Led to COVID-19 Success

    Needless to say, in such rankings the US ranks quite low.
  • frank
    5.4k
    btw... the vacationers were not just younger people at beaches. The elderly have taken up the charge to 'spread the good word' by bus vacations as usual. It's a collective failure.Mayor of Simpleton

    Bus vacations would be loony. I understand the desire to get back to normal, though.
  • Isaac
    3.1k
    Likely the countries that score the highest points in various studies with the public health sector.

    Japan for example has a quite well performing health care sector and it has scored in many investigation top places with it's health care sector compared to others. And it's doing just fine with the pandemic
    ssu

    That doesn't have any bearing on the point I'm making. There are key components of a healthcare system which cannot be bought in a short timescale no matter how much money you throw at them. It takes years to train as a nurse, doctor, researcher...and if you don't have enough you can't handle the task properly. Even if Japan's health system is in good shape, it doesn't mean their research facilities are, nor does it mean they wouldn't equally benefit from more robust and well-established interventions than a wild scramble to find Phizer's next golden goose.
  • ArguingWAristotleTiff
    3.9k
    I think from contact to symptoms is around 5-7 days. In the hospital we stop treating infected people as if they're contagious after 21 days (though I think the real number is around 14 days).frank
    Thank you for helping me understand :up:

    Thankfully I am Covid-19 negative.

    Component Results
    SARS-CoV-2, NAA
    Your Value
    Negative
    Standard Range
  • Benkei
    3.5k
    Did you test while having symptoms? The PCR test requires a minimal viral load that might not necessarily have been reached if you're still asymptomatic.
  • frank
    5.4k

    If I'm reading Bloomberg correctly, elderly people were specifically refused access to intensive care in the first months of the pandemic.

    Some of them may have just been dehydrated, so I dont know how to process that information.
  • frank
    5.4k

    Yay!!
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