I can pretty much guarantee you that if someone were to put a gun to your head or threaten you or your family with something serious that meaning you've been looking for would be back in an instant. Similarly, if you were to catch a friend or a sibling about to jump off a bridge would you be thinking "oh well in the long run 1,000 years from now...."

I feel like this "meaning" question often pops back into life when we're either depressed or bored. A new parent doesn't find themselves asking this. Meaning is found in the here and now. If you want to lie back and take this 100,000 foot view of the super big picture of life and existence feel free to do so but I don't know why anyone needs to accept that view as the most true one as opposed to the here-and-now picture.

you are in a good mood right NOW — schopenhauer1

True. Ask me how I’m doing in ten minutes. It’s likely to change, especially if I turn on cable news. That said, I think most people value life, and even when life sucks, hope keeps them going. Thinking positively such as listing things and people that you are grateful for can bring you out of a depressed mood.

Actually, that’s my homework assignment for you. I want a list of things and people you are grateful for. I guarantee that when the negative thoughts creep up, if you make that an exercise to list what you are grateful for, then you will immediately stop feeling as low.

All of this takes place in a physical world in a social context. I think of something like fretting over which shoe size really fits best. It is not hunting to survive, it is not boredom really.. Just silly tedious maintenance of something that is contingently due to Western civilization's quirk that we have various size shoes which, if one is enculturated to wearing shoes, one gets used to wanting them to fit right..

I was thinking about this and I do notice this general attitude among a lot of philosophically-minded people. The attitude I'm referring to is one that tends to de-value or maybe denigrate that which is considered tedious (like buying shoes) and on the other hand places the emphasis/the value on "the big picture."

I'm not looking to start an argument here, but I think the biggest change I've had since I finished my philosophy degree is that the focus has shifted away from "the big picture" and into a more detail-oriented perspective. I remember back to when I was picking out running shoes or choosing boots during basic training and those decisions - if not chosen wisely - could have disastrous consequences. A runner who picks the wrong size shoe could find himself in serious foot pain half way through a race. Even if you're out with friends and your shoes are the wrong size that could suck. Don't even get me started about military footwear. I understand that if it's just casual use the stakes aren't that high though.

I just liked your example with the shoes here because shoes are actually extremely important in certain domains, but in the world of philosophy there seem to be bigger matters to be dealt with.

Actually, that’s my homework assignment for you. I want a list of things and people you are grateful for. I guarantee that when the negative thoughts creep up, if you make that an exercise to list what you are grateful for, then you will immediately stop feeling as low. — Noah Te Stroete

And in between that time I give you the list of things I am grateful for, the list for things I am not grow longer...

was thinking about this and I do notice this general attitude among a lot of philosophically-minded people. The attitude I'm referring to is one that tends to de-value or maybe denigrate that which is considered tedious (like buying shoes) and on the other hand places the emphasis/the value on "the big picture." — BitconnectCarlos

This is a slight misinterpretation of what I was getting at. It is exactly those maintenance/comfort things that DO indeed take up most of our intention. I was not making a value statement of it, but rather make an observation (survival, comfort, entertainment are our three main drives in my idea about our everyday affairs). But, with this comes a lot of low-level tedium/discomfort/anxiety. You mentioned an example here actually:

A runner who picks the wrong size shoe could find himself in serious foot pain half way through a race. Even if you're out with friends and your shoes are the wrong size that could suck. Don't even get me started about military footwear. I understand that if it's just casual use the stakes aren't that high though. — BitconnectCarlos

I was not making a value statement of it, but rather make an observation (survival, comfort, entertainment are our three main drives in my idea about our everyday affairs). But, with this comes a lot of low-level tedium/discomfort/anxiety.

I thought you were making a value judgment because you referred to picking out shoes (or fretting over shoe size) as "silly tedious maintenance" and then you just regarded it as a quirk of western civilization that we have different shoe sizes....In any case, if you just want to say comfort, survival and entertainment are main drives I'll agree with that.

I do believe though that shoe shopping can be meaningful, and I think you would definitely agree if you've had to run in uncomfortable shoes.

I do believe though that shoe shopping can be meaningful, and I think you would definitely agree if you've had to run in uncomfortable shoes. — BitconnectCarlos

Yes, shoes are an annoying but important thing to pick out, hence I used it as an example. I mentioned Western civilization because this might not matter to someone from a culture with no shoes, like a tribal one perhaps. They have other issues to deal with.

Meaning is like love: there is nothing more to it that you could ask for than the feeling of it, and aside from asking if someone feels it, there is no question about whether it’s “real”.

Living a meaningful life is therefore identical to feeling like your life is meaningful. Feeling meaningless about the prospect of finite life or about the prospect of infinite life is either way a function of the mind. If the mind can be made to accept finite life, or to accept an infinity of existing, then either or both can be meaningful. If a mind just feels meaningless, then no facts about life can be meaningful to them either way. The key is in first making life feel meaningful, and then you will find things to pin that meaningfulness on, whether life is finite or infinite.

Afterlife or not, what's really the value of doing anything in the grand scheme of things? — runbounder

You say that because you are in depression. By this I don’t mean to say that you have a mental illness, that there is something wrong in your brain, even though there is a correlation between the state of depression and brain activity, but there is some underlying cause you haven’t identified yet that makes you look at things that way.

A great mistake people make is to think that they are depressed because life is meaningless, while the reality is they see life as meaningless because they are depressed. When you feel the love and beauty in the universe you see precisely the value and the point of existence, when you don’t you see no point and no amount of logic can make you see the point. Words can only be used as a tool to help you get out of that hole.

You aren’t depressed because there is some chemical imbalance in your brain, rather the chemical imbalance is a manifestation of depression, it isn’t the cause. So what’s the cause? A baby isn’t born depressed. It’s the negative experiences in life that can lead to depression. That can make one lose hope, lose faith in love, in happiness, in light. You have let yourself become overwhelmed by darkness, you have let the suffering you have experienced separate you from the light.

Think about what your dreams were when you were a child, what you dreamed to do. Those dreams had meaning to you, you were connected to them. Something has separated you from them, something that happened to you, some false beliefs have taken hold of you, some darkness, depression, or however you want to call it.

Existence isn’t a prison even if it is eternal, but you feel like you are in a prison, why? What is it in your life that makes you feel imprisoned? Identify that and that will help you find a way out of the darkness.

I can pretty much guarantee you that if someone were to put a gun to your head or threaten you or your family with something serious that meaning you've been looking for would be back in an instant. — BitconnectCarlos

I think its not meaning that returns to you in that instant. We cling on to our lives simply beacuse we are too scared of death. We simply lack the means to accept death even when the alternative is meaningless existence. This makes sense because we are after all organisms whose primary function is to ensure continuation of our species. However, when we are not threatened by immient death, we can afford to look at things from a logical standpoint. We can afford to see life for what it is and even accept its meaninglessness. Even when we do accept the lack of purpose, we refuse to accept death.We are coded to avoid death.

Hence, any meaning that you cling on to in face of death is simply conjured up so as to motivate a fight against death. It can not be considered true meaning or purpose.


I feel that this is the reason we are even having such a discussion. It is apparent that no objective meaning exists. The universe would not change by the slightest bit if we didn't exist. Even our existence was simply a matter of chance and the world could have been vastly differently had the past been even a slight bit different.
However, that leaves us with the alternative of accepting death. But that too is not possible. Hence, since existence is mandatory, we either live in blissful ignorance or in a distraught state looking for meaning of any sort by trying to extarct it from our surroundings and circumstances. We talk about love and beauty, we talk about success, money, fame and our families, just about anything so we can justify existence. Such things cannot obviously be true the objective reason humans exist simply because they vary from person to person and are choosen just so we can exist in peace.


I personally think that we should look for meaning around us because even if artifically conjured, it helps us survive, which is our only true purpose.

Something. You get heaven. Or hell. Or reincarnation. Or something else entirely. Whatever. In some way, shape or form, you get to continue to exist. Congratulations. Problem is you now have what I've called the near-infinite prison dilemma. Imagine yourself immortal but stuck in an empty 8x8 cell. You'll eventually go stir-crazy. Let's change that cell to a 5000 sqft facility with a variety of things to do, entertainment and whatnot. You'll still go crazy, it'll just take longer. You can expand it further to almost infinite options, but the problem is no matter how big the "outside" is, you're still trapped with "you" and that will eventually drive you nuts. You'll probably be wishing for oblivion at that point. — runbounder

I'm not saying this is or isn't an issue, but many people at some point just choose to stop being themselves and just be somebody else. I would say that in the long run, those who are kind to others and (and) also keep their relatively innocent personality are better off. I feel the longer a person lives, the more likely they'll stray off the "optimal" path. I say just enjoy life if life will allow it.

I think its not meaning that returns to you in that instant.

The problem with this discussion is that "meaning" is kind of a vague term and what could count as "meaning" for me might not count for you. Just look at how the term is used in the English language. It's very often used when we're teaching the language: "casa means house" or "gracias means thank you" - in other words, there's this sort of correspondence: A means B, C means D, etc.

Or we might also use it like: "that facial expression means...." in other words, we're still trying to draw that direct correspondence. We'd be making an inference as opposed to conveying a information in the form of a direct relationship as we were above with the language example.

The problem with asking "what is the meaning of life?" is that there just isn't this kind of correspondence. There's nothing to point to. It's an ambiguity in the language.

You could take it to mean: "What is man's highest purpose" or "What explicit purpose has God (if he exists) has assigned man?" or "What is humanity's ultimate end?"

I feel a certain feeling when I view a beautiful landscape and I'll describe the experience as "meaningful." I've heard many people describe LSD or magic mushroom trips as incredibly meaningful experiences. Who are we to tell them that they can't use that descriptor or that this descriptor isn't really what meaning is all about? What are you pointing to?

The problem with asking "what is the meaning of life?" is that there just isn't this kind of correspondence. There's nothing to point to. — BitconnectCarlos

Indeed, though usually the underlying question is “what is the purpose of my life?”, or “what is the purpose of humanity?”

At that point we have to notice that purpose stems from a desire, there is no purpose without a desire, the desire is what creates the purpose. So when one wonders “what is the purpose of my life?”, one is really asking “what is it that I desire to achieve with my life?”.

People who find their life purposeless have become disconnected from their desires, from their driving force, that’s what I call depression. These people have got lost in the darkness and they need to find their way back to the light. The desperate existential cry “what’s the point of all this??” is really asking “where have my desires gone??”.

People aren’t depressed because life is purposeless, they find life purposeless because they are depressed, it took me a long time to realize this. And part of the reason they are stuck in existential despair is that they firmly believe their life is inherently purposeless, that it really is an objective state of affairs, they fail to see the influence of their state of mind, the influence of how they feel on how they see the world. And of course when the depressive worldview stems from how we feel and we’re stuck in negative feelings, then we are unable to see that the underlying cause is how we feel and not how the world is.

And then the big question is how to get out of the depressed state? How to reconnect to our desires when we have lost them? Plenty of things can help, but the solution varies from individual to individual, it depends on the life they have had up to now, on what they have experienced that has led them to get stuck in the darkness. The materialistic view of seeing depression as being caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain is flawed, depression has a noticeable influence on brain activity but that’s a consequence, a manifestation, it’s not the cause. Many people have escaped the depressed state without any medication and without changing their diet, they have escaped depression by having experiences that made them find their way back to the light, reconnect to their desires.

Changing one’s diet can help. Ingesting some medication or psychedelic substance can help. Changing one’s environment can help. Reflecting on one’s past experiences can help. Being shown love, being listened to, being understood can help. Reconnecting with nature, spending time with animals or plants can help. Realizing that one’s life isn’t inherently purposeless can help. Speaking of all this can help. So many things can help, the right combination will depend on the individual. And at some point the individual leaves the depressed state, leaves the darkness and comes to see the light again, and realizes that they weren’t depressed because life is purposeless, but that they found life purposeless because they were depressed.

You’re worthwhile and you deserve to be loved, don’t let anyone take that away from you.