• DingoJones
    2k
    I think you're conflating different things, if by "science" you mean Francis Bacon's method based on "induction" or "empiricism", that's a completely separate institution or method from "deduction", aka logic / reason or "rationalism".IvoryBlackBishop

    I didnt intend to mash all those things together, but to identify each separately as things that cannot be used to detect/ interact with the supernatural. Basically, all the tools we have to figure things out.
  • alcontali
    1.3k
    If I guess wrong and choose the wrong religion, then after I die? Really, really bad stuff will happen to me.EricH

    I suspect that you may be seeing too much in that.

    If you refrain from the kaba’ir (major sins) you have been prohibited from, We will expiate your sayyi’aat (minor sins) and allow you entry into Jannah (Paradise). — Quran, an-Nisaa: 31

    In other words, you would need to knowingly do some really bad things to be refused entry into Paradise. With some self-discipline, not even that much, it should be possible to avoid engaging in the absolutely worst behaviour.

    It is similar to avoiding the death penalty on earth by not overly misbehaving. How many people end up on death row each year? Not that many either.
  • Sir2u
    2.3k
    alcontali is a Muslim and I am a believer in Christ. We get along just fine.Noah Te Stroete

    I am an atheist and I work in a catholic school. :gasp: I have friends that are mormons, jehovas witnesses, hindu, and even a witch. And I get along with everyone.

    As I said, I don't give a shit about religion. As long as the person is nice and does not try to convince me they are right.
  • Sir2u
    2.3k
    I guess that the first red pill to take concerning "a good education" is Aaron Clarey's notorious book "Worthless".alcontali

    Does education mean only going to school? I am a teacher and even I know that most schools and universities are as useless a hell at preparing kids for their future. Education to me means being prepared for life, not going to school.

    The meta red pill is to understand that almost everything you believe is a manipulative and deceptive lie that does not serve your own interests but the ones of the corporate oligarchy.alcontali

    Does this apply to religions as well? I guess it must because most religions are nothing more than money making corporations.

    Even the evil, anti-biological, crappy food -- worthless calories -- that you buy from Walmart is purposely designed to make you sick. Without expensive corporate health insurance you are not supposed to survive for too long the onslaught on your body of worthless processed food surreptitiously laced with sickening high-fructose corn syrup.alcontali

    I live in a backward, third world country, so this does not really apply too much yet.

    According to Rollo Tomassi, somehow still a Catholic, it is the Church that has become the worst scam of all:alcontali

    I agree, but that is about the religion, the church, not about the people. Just like every other religion there are good and bad people in it. As a muslim you should understand that the bad part of the religion is the one that out shines all of the good that exists in it.

    The core red-pill message is:
    All of society's institutions are now highly corrupt and try to manipulate you with their deceptive lies. If you don't fight back, you will simply start believing these lies and become very unhappy, if these dangerous lies do not kill end up killing you first.
    alcontali

    Why do I or my kids need a religion to tell me what are lies and what is truth?
  • Sir2u
    2.3k
    The point I'm trying to make is that people can act in a "religious" or "fanatical" way about things even if they aren't traditionally what is defined or perceived as a "religion".IvoryBlackBishop

    Religious,
    Concerned with sacred matters, religion or the church
    Having or showing belief in and reverence for a deity
    Of or relating to clergy bound by monastic vows
    Extremely scrupulous and conscientious

    Fanatical
    Marked by excessive enthusiasm for and intense devotion to a cause or idea

    Dingo already said the first part of my answer.

    Trump supporters or other rabid follower of any group or person are nor generally counted as religious, fanatical and rabid yes, but not religious.
  • Sir2u
    2.3k
    It is similar to avoiding the death penalty on earth by not overly misbehaving. How many people end up on death row each year? Not that many either.alcontali

    Death row and religion of any sort should not be mixed up like that.
  • Michael Lee
    52
    Sir, I found what you wrote so funny, I'm having serious trouble typing this as we speak.
    You can clearly notice that unbelievers are gradually but surely losing the ability to form families and to reproduce... children are a gift from God.alcontali
    . And your reply,
    I am a non believer, and I have no problems reproducing!Sir2u

    But given the state of our planet, with overconsumption of resources especially our food, and we are limited in our abilities to manufacture it on our farms, combined with climate change, too many children is God's curse on us and he delights in our suffering!
  • alcontali
    1.3k
    Does this apply to religions as well? I guess it must because most religions are nothing more than money making corporations.Sir2u

    I agree for organized clergy. They are as much under control of the corporate oligarchy as for example doctors. So, yes, beware of mouthpieces of the powers that be.

    I agree, but that is about the religion, the church, not about the people. Just like every other religion there are good and bad people in it. As a muslim you should understand that the bad part of the religion is the one that out shines all of the good that exists in it.Sir2u

    The scriptures are excellent foundations for a system of morality. This is certainly the case for Abrahamic religions. I was absolutely not criticizing Jewish (or Islamic) law when criticizing organized clergy. On the contrary, I consider any conclusion that syntactically entails from the scriptures to be legitimate.

    Why do I or my kids need a religion to tell me what are lies and what is truth?Sir2u

    Modern society is very much at odds with religion. It advocates behaviour that is contrary to religion. If modern society says one thing and religion says another on the morality of behaviour, then you can safely assume that religion is right while modern society is depraved, wrong, and even dangerous.

    All institutions of modern society are now totally corrupt: public-school indoctrination camp, mass media, politics, medicine, organized clergy, workplaces, corporations, and so on. They all advocate horrible depravities. They cannot be trusted in any way.

    In my opinion, concerning morality, all other sources besides religious scriptures are entirely corrupt and depraved. So, yes, amidst this cesspool of corruption, you need the scriptures as a reminder about the truth on morality.
  • alcontali
    1.3k
    But given the state of our planet, with overconsumption of resources especially our food, and we are limited in our abilities to manufacture it on our farms, combined with climate change, too many children is God's curse on us and he delights in our suffering!Michael Lee

    If you do not want children, then in that case, do not make any. That's your own choice, isn't it? Furthermore, I also believe that people who do not want children, should not make any.

    For believers, unlike for unbelievers, it is a bit different, because God wants us to make children. So, that is why we want to make children. Furthermore, I also believe that people who want to have children, should simply make them; and that is obviously what the believers are doing.

    I think that this schema clearly explains what is going on. Problem solved.
  • EricH
    251

    I have many questions each of which will open up different avenues of discussion. Let me start here:

    If I follow you, anyone can get into Paradise - Christian, Jew, Atheist, etc - as long as they behave decently and avoid major sins. Correct?
  • alcontali
    1.3k
    If I follow you, anyone can get into Paradise - Christian, Jew, Atheist, etc - as long as they behave decently and avoid major sins. Correct?EricH

    According to Islam, are all non-Muslims going to hell? The short answer is ‘No’. In Islam the decision of who goes to heaven and who goes to hell is left entirely to God as He alone knows people’s hearts and is aware of their deeds. What Islam claims is that it is the perfect religion for mankind and a religion for all time and all people.www.alislam.org, Library / Frequently Asked Questions

    Sufi Islamic preacher Habib Ali al-Jifri said that it is not true that non-Muslims will not enter Paradise, citing an Islamic belief that states that “God will not torture people who did not receive the message of Islam”. He added that Islam has not reached some non-Muslims in its proper form.Habib al-Jifri, Some non-Muslims may still enter Paradise

    Do non-Muslims have chance to go to Paradise? If they were following their prophet at his time, then they have a chance to go to heaven. For example Jews have a chance to go heaven at the time of Moses (pbuh) and Christians also have that chance at the time of Jesus (pbuh). But if any one follows any religion other than Islam after Mohammed (pbuh) became the prophet then no chance to go to heaven as stated clearly in Quran: وَمَن يَبْتَغِ غَيْرَ الإِسْلامِ دِينًا فَلَن يُقْبَلَ مِنْهُ وَهُوَ فِي الآخِرَةِ مِنَ الْخَاسِرِينَ And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers. [Quran 3:85] The Tafsir for the above Aya is: The following was revealed regarding those who apostatized and became disbelievers: Whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him and in the Hereafter he shall be among the losers, because he will end up in the Fire, made everlasting for him.islam.stackexchange.com

    "Do Muslims believe that everyone will burn in Hell-fire except Muslims"? Simple response is "NO". Unfortunately it's not up to Muslims to decide who goes to hell-fire and who doesn't. That decree is going to come from Allah SWT and our belief is on the basis of what Allah swt tells us in Quran, "All sins can be forgiven except Shirk (creating partners with Allah)". Muslims don't have a free-ride either. The tribulations that one goes through in life will wash-away some of the sins. Some of the sins will be forgiven for the pain & sufferings of death and the grave. Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said that the Day of Reckoning will be a very tough day.www.interfaith.org

    To cut a long story short, it is presumptuous to predict what will happen on the Day of the Last Judgment. We will all have sinned, regardless of our choice of religion. Some of us will be allowed into Paradise and others will not. It is silly to believe that religious affiliation on earth will be the only thing that will matter on That Day. Absolutely nobody seems to believe that.
  • Artemis
    1.9k
    , then is there any value engaging in religious thought and reflection?Michael Lee

    I think the Unitarian Universalist church is a good example of how relatively non-theistic religion can and should work. I'm an atheist, but I think atheism's greatest mistake is that it took away something so fundamemtal to so many people's lives and offered nothing substantial to replace it with.

    A few things a UU style church offers:

    It gives people a sense of community, which is not something I personally feel a need for very often, but it's important to recognize that most people do need that in their lives.

    It gives them a sense of belonging. Not just to a community, but a cause. Atheists need to find meaning in a meaningless universe, so sometimes it helps to have an institution to represent all that.

    A safe place to hear and discuss life and ethics and all that. Otherwise all the messages around us tend to be Coca Cola ads and pop culture. People's brains slowly disintegrate.
  • EricH
    251
    It is silly to believe that religious affiliation on earth will be the only thing that will matter on That Day. Absolutely nobody seems to believe that.alcontali

    But if any one follows any religion other than Islam after Mohammed (pbuh) became the prophet then no chance to go to heaven as stated clearly in Quran: وَمَن يَبْتَغِ غَيْرَ الإِسْلامِ دِينًا فَلَن يُقْبَلَ مِنْهُ وَهُوَ فِي الآخِرَةِ مِنَ الْخَاسِرِينَ And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers. [Quran 3:85]islam.stackexchange.com

    You seem to be contradicting yourself.
  • praxis
    2.7k
    A safe place to hear and discuss life and ethics and all that. Otherwise all the messages around us tend to be Coca Cola ads and pop culture. People's brains slowly disintegrate.Artemis

    A common refrain, that atheism leads to nihilism or whatever but how true is this? I don’t believe there’s any evidence that atheists are less moral or ignorant than the religious, in fact the opposite may be the case. Also, the religious are far from immune to rampant consumerism, greed, and manipulation by the rich and powerful.
  • Artemis
    1.9k


    I wasn't talking about morality. I was talking about filling your life with meaningful content.
  • praxis
    2.7k
    I think a major misconception is that people are somehow unable to feel or find meaning for themselves and that it must be administered by an authority of some kind.
  • alcontali
    1.3k
    You seem to be contradicting yourself.EricH

    The Tafsir for the above Aya is: The following was revealed regarding those who apostatized and became disbelievers:islam.stackexchange.com

    According to the scholar, the verse is context-specific.
  • Sir2u
    2.3k
    But given the state of our planet, with overconsumption of resources especially our food, and we are limited in our abilities to manufacture it on our farms, combined with climate change, too many children is God's curse on us and he delights in our suffering!Michael Lee

    But the holy brothers keep on getting the holy sisters pregnant, because that is what a god said they should does. Most of the atheist I know don't have more than one or two kids, how many catholic families can you say that about. Most other religions still believe it is the place of the woman to stay at home raising they kids. Luckily the women seem to be getting smarter and are refusing to accept this status in life.

    So it would appear, but she sure has balls.
  • Sir2u
    2.3k
    Modern society is very much at odds with religion. It advocates behaviour that is contrary to religion.alcontali

    I doubt that any society advocates bad behavior, they do permit it though.

    If modern society says one thing and religion says another on the morality of behaviour, then you can safely assume that religion is right while modern society is depraved, wrong, and even dangerous.alcontali

    So the church when the church says that you cannot use birth control because it is not beneficial for mankind and therefore incorrect behavior I should believe them?

    So the church when the church says that you cannot have sex outside of marriage(even though they do) because it is not beneficial for mankind and therefore incorrect behavior I should believe them?

    So the church when the church says that you cannot separate from your spouse that is beating you because it is not beneficial for mankind and therefore incorrect behavior I should believe them?

    Don't think so.
    All institutions of modern society are now totally corrupt: public-school indoctrination camp, mass media, politics, medicine, organized clergy, workplaces, corporations, and so on.alcontali

    Does the "and so on" include churches and religions? Don't answer, it was a rhetorical question.

    Do you seriously think that this is a problem that has just popped up in the last few years? The only difference between today and 2 thousand years ago is the technology that helps to spread the ideas.

    They all advocate horrible depravities. They cannot be trusted in any way.alcontali

    Could you give us some examples of this? I still cannot get my head around this advocating depravities thing. I have not heard anything about the college of medicine in any country advocating any depravities. But maybe we different definitions of depravities.

    In my opinion, concerning morality, all other sources besides religious scriptures are entirely corrupt and depraved. So, yes, amidst this cesspool of corruption, you need the scriptures as a reminder about the truth on morality.alcontali

    But if the leaders of the religions do not practice what they preach, why should anyone follow their lead.
  • Sir2u
    2.3k
    Atheists need to find meaning in a meaningless universe, so sometimes it helps to have an institution to represent all that.Artemis

    I have never needed to find a meaning to life, because I have always known it.
    People tend to over dramatize such things and insist that humans are different from other animals and therefore must have a purpose for living, all the while overlooking the obvious.

    The only purpose in life is to live it to its fullest. To get as much as possible out of it while you can.
    go places, meet people, eat different food and drink new wines, learn as much as you can about as many things as you can.
    To sum it up, experience as many things as is possible and try to be happy while making as many others happy as is possible. I have no intentions of waiting for the next life to start enjoying myself when i can do it perfectly well here and now.
  • Artemis
    1.9k
    The only purpose in life is to live it to its fullest. To get as much as possible out of it while you can.
    go places, meet people, eat different food and drink new wines, learn as much as you can about as many things as you can.
    To sum it up, experience as many things as is possible and try to be happy while making as many others happy as is possible. I have no intentions of waiting for the next life to start enjoying myself when i can do it perfectly well here and now.
    Sir2u

    And, you know, I agree with that. That's how I live my own life.

    But I've come to realize over the years that this is possibly just a psychological trait people like you and I happened to be born with. Other people might have to to a lot of self-work to get to that place.

    I've come to realize that there are lots of people, however, who somehow don't have that. It's just not how their brains are wired. They cannot find meaning inside and through themselves and need some external force to supply them with one. In fact, I think that's probably true of the majority of people in one way or another.

    It's why you can have on one hand people with all sorts of problems and issues pull off amazing feats overcoming their circumstances, and then other really objectively fortunate people just fall into despair and throw their lives away. There's some kind of internal drive that some people have and others lack that makes the difference.

    For those people, I think there needs to be something, somewhere they can turn to.
  • Artemis
    1.9k
    I think a major misconception is that people are somehow unable to feel or find meaning for themselves and that it must be administered by an authority of some kind.praxis

    There are too many people whose lives clearly lack independent, internal meaning for that to be a major misconception.
  • Sir2u
    2.3k
    For those people, I think there needs to be something, somewhere they can turn to.Artemis

    There are too many people who's lives clearly lack independent, internal meaning for that to be a major misconception.Artemis

    I think that the problem is more of a growing up thing than a hardwired problem. When I grew up we were told that you have to be responsible for yourself, that you have to learn and do whatever is needed to be able to get ahead in life. And we were taught that we do not get ahead by stepping on others to do so.
    More and more parents are abdicating their duties and letting the internet and forcing the teachers to do the up-bring of their kids. Who knows what tomorrows kids will be like or how they are going to survive.

    Personally I think that people today are being trained to be useless so that big brother can take over.
  • EricH
    251

    OK - so a person can live an exemplary life as a non-believer and get into Paradise. But if you accept the faith but then later in life choose another religion, then you are denied Paradise even if you have otherwise lived an exemplary life. Correct?

    BTW - it's not necessary to cite any verses. I have no reason to doubt your honesty or accuracy.
  • praxis
    2.7k
    I think a major misconception is that people are somehow unable to feel or find meaning for themselves and that it must be administered by an authority of some kind.
    — praxis

    There are too many people whose lives clearly lack independent, internal meaning for that to be a major misconception.
    Artemis

    I’m not sure how to interpret this. You could be talking about religious or non-religious people. Also, meaning, of the sort we’re discussing, is necessarily interdependent or dependent on others and our culture.
  • alcontali
    1.3k
    I doubt that any society advocates bad behavior, they do permit it though.Sir2u

    For example, North American society advocates taking out interest-carrying student loans. In Islamic morality, that amounts to encouraging bad behaviour.

    So the church when the church says that you cannot use birth control because it is not beneficial for mankind and therefore incorrect behavior I should believe them?Sir2u

    Muslim scholars have extended the example of coitus interruptus, by analogy, to declaring permissible other forms of contraception, subject to three conditions.[25]
    (1) As offspring are the right of both the husband and the wife, the birth control method should be used with both parties' consent.
    (2) The method should not cause permanent sterility.[25]
    (3) The method should not otherwise harm the body.
    Wikipedia on birth control in Islam

    So the church when the church says that you cannot have sex outside of marriage(even though they do) because it is not beneficial for mankind and therefore incorrect behavior I should believe them?Sir2u

    The term "marriage" in Islam refers to a contractual arrangement with the terms and conditions as specified in Islamic law. Signing up to T&C that are materially different from the ones specified by Islamic law can rarely be justified. The believer would need very, very good reasons to do that. For the believer, sex can only take place within the framework of legitimacy specified by Islamic law.

    So the church when the church says that you cannot separate from your spouse that is beating you because it is not beneficial for mankind and therefore incorrect behavior I should believe them?Sir2u

    Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) strike them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all). If ye fear a breach between them twain, appoint (two) arbiters, one from his family, and the other from hers; if they wish for peace, Allah will cause their reconciliation: For Allah hath full knowledge, and is acquainted with all things. — Quran 4:34-35

    There is no Church in Islam. Advice on matters of morality is best obtained from independent religious scholars ("mufti") in written form. It is perfectly ok and even recommended to go "mufti shopping" and compare advice from different scholars prior to reaching a conclusion on a jurisprudential matter.
  • alcontali
    1.3k
    OK - so a person can live an exemplary life as a non-believer and get into Paradise. But if you accept the faith but then later in life choose another religion, then you are denied Paradise even if you have otherwise lived an exemplary life. Correct?EricH

    Possibly. I am not a religious scholar, though. It is better to ask such jurisprudential question to one or more independent scholars ("mufti") and to compare their answers ("mufti shopping").

    The role of an imam, who leads the congregation in worship at a mosque, is very public and very visible, and therefore often under quite a bit of political pressure. He can often not speak freely without risking reprisals from secular authorities. Therefore, it is preferable not to burden an imam at the mosque with jurisprudential questions but to direct such questions to independent scholars ("mufti"), who are much less visible, and who can syntactically derive written advisories from scripture much more freely.
  • Artemis
    1.9k
    I think that the problem is more of a growing up thing than a hardwired problem. When I grew up we were told that you have to be responsible for yourself, that you have to learn and do whatever is needed to be able to get ahead in life. And we were taught that we do not get ahead by stepping on others to do so.
    More and more parents are abdicating their duties and letting the internet and forcing the teachers to do the up-bring of their kids. Who knows what tomorrows kids will be like or how they are going to survive
    Sir2u

    Nurture is a factor, but probably not as great of one as people like to think. Twin studies have shown that even adopted into different families, people with the exact same genes have similar life outcomes and life satisfaction rates:

    Twin studies link
  • Artemis
    1.9k
    Also, meaning, of the sort we’re discussing, is necessarily interdependent or dependent on others and our culture.praxis

    Well.... Then even atheists would need a culture that has things which fulfill those needs in a productive way.
  • EricH
    251

    Before going on in this discussion I should be clear - I have no religious beliefs and as such do not belief in any afterlife. That said, I am good friends with people of differing religions and I see first hand that it provides a source of comfort to them. I have no problem with people being religious as long as they do not try to impose their beliefs on me. If a person's religion provides them with meaning and structure to their lives, then who am I to tell them differently?

    So getting back to my first question. Put yourself in the position of a person who feels the need to belong to a religion but is not sure about which religion to join. Each religion says different things about the nature of the afterlife and how you should behave in this life. Some religions say that as long as you are a good decent person you will get into paradise. Other religions - e.g. some fundamentalist Christian denominations - say that if you do not believe properly you will burn in hellfire for all eternity.

    So how is a person to choose one out of this bewildering variety of options? Remember, only one can be completely correct - and if you choose wrong you could burn in hell for all eternity. That's a pretty serious penalty for guessing wrong.
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