• Brett
    2.3k


    They want to say that there is some strict meaning to words like “sex”Michael

    That’s because there is and nature has decreed it. However, if you now want to say that mind determines sex, and not nature, then go for it. People can use whatever pronoun and gender name they prefer, but denying the facts of nature is a pretty big call.
  • TheWillowOfDarkness
    2k


    Sex is nothing but another name, a categorisation of identity.

    Nature stuff, the bodies, are unaffected by this categorisation. If we have, for example, a woman with a penis, there is no denial of nature. Nature, the body with a penis, just has an identity of woman.
  • Michael
    9.1k
    That’s because there is and nature has decreed itBrett

    Nature doesn’t decree what words mean. Language users do.
  • Brett
    2.3k


    Sex is nothing but another name, a categorisation of identity.TheWillowOfDarkness

    I know you think that and I don’t.
  • TheWillowOfDarkness
    2k


    The point was your account is clearly mistaken: one can give a body with a penis the sex category of woman without denying she has a penis. No doubt there is a denial or rejection of something in this position, but it is not the bodies which have been formed by nature.
  • Brett
    2.3k


    Nature doesn’t decree what words mean. Language users do.Michael

    Yes and nature came before language. Words are an effort to categorise, but they’re not the thing. I’m sure there a more efficient argument than that but you get my drift.
  • Michael
    9.1k
    You’re missing the point. Nature may determine your sex chromosomes and birth genitals but it doesn’t determine that the word “man” strictly refers to those with XY chromosomes and born with a penis.
  • Bitter Crank
    8.8k
    but gender dysphoria is a very serious issue, the rates of suicide and attempted suicide by transgender people are upwards of 75% and I feel like you are just trying to say that it is a casual want instead of what it really is, the ability to be who we really aresarah young

    Indeed, gender dysphoria is a very serious issue. I would not say otherwise. I also do not say that gender dysphoria is a casual wish. The difficulties which transgendered people endure argues strongly against it being a casual desire.

    Can a man take on the outward appearance of a woman? Yes, clearly. People can take on the appearance and the roles (within limits) of the opposite gender. Can a male become a female? I would say 'no', because "maleness" and "femaleness" is deeper than appearance and roles. Sex (male/female, as opposed to appearances and roles of man and woman) is built from conception forward, resides in the chromosomes and sex-linked traits, and is immutable (in mammals, at least).

    Not only is sex built up from conception, it has been built up in the evolution of species. Many (most?) plants and almost all animals are either male or female.

    Transgendered people can (and do) change their appearance and roles. As long as that produces a long-term increase in personal satisfaction, fine. What can not be done is an actual change of sex -- switching out the XX or XY chromosomes for their opposites. The organs that were made in utero can be removed, and hormones can force changes in appearance.

    Re-gendering rests on a delusion IF individuals think they have actually become the opposites - switched from male to female, when what they have achieved is a change in appearance and role.
  • Brett
    2.3k


    but it doesn’t determine that the word “man” strictly refers to those with XY chromosomes and born with a penis.Michael

    Do you mean “man” or “male”?
  • Michael
    9.1k
    Because nature doesn’t determine the meaning of words.
  • Brett
    2.3k


    And it doesn’t need words to be what it is.
  • Bitter Crank
    8.8k
    there a more efficient argument than thatBrett

    Like, "The word is not the thing" and "The map is not the territory" perhaps.
  • TheWillowOfDarkness
    2k


    Indeed. A body with a penis will be a body with a penis, whether it is "male" or "female." The sex identity doesn't determine the bodily state at all.


    Same with chromosomes (which is to say, even to change chromosomes would still only be altering an "appearance". Sex lies even deeper than that.)
  • Brett
    2.3k
    Like, "The word is not the thing" and "The map is not the territory" perhaps.Bitter Crank

    Thank you.
  • Michael
    9.1k
    Nobody is saying otherwise.
  • Brett
    2.3k


    I think you’re coming from an ideological position here which I cannot challenge.
  • TheWillowOfDarkness
    2k


    I don't know about ideological position (that springs to mind certain political nations which aren't relevant to my point here), but certainly a logical one.

    To oppose the point I've made here, you would have to equivocate the existence of the body with word, such that a body with a penis was identical to the word "male," such that one would never have a body with a penis without it being the word male. An obvious incoherence since, as you yourself have pointed out, the body is distinct from the words which talk about it.
  • Bitter Crank
    8.8k
    Sex lies even deeper than thatTheWillowOfDarkness

    How does sex lie deeper than the chromosomes in which reside DNA?
  • sarah young
    43
    Can a male become a female? I would say 'no', because "maleness" and "femaleness" is deeper than appearance and roles. Sex (male/female, as opposed to appearances and roles of man and woman) is built from conception forward, resides in the chromosomes and sex-linked traits, and is immutableBitter Crank

    I do disagree with you about weather or not someone can truly change their sex, because i think that changing you appearance, organs, and societal roles to match the opposite gender constitutes a sex change. But I don't care whether or not you think I am a true woman, and this entire thread has just been a bunch of people repeating themselves over and over so how do you feel about the transgender bathroom situation
  • Bitter Crank
    8.8k
    But I don't care whether or not you think I am a true womansarah young

    No reason that you should care, as far as I know.

    so how do you feel about the transgender bathroom situationsarah young

    My main concern about public toilets is that they be well maintained -- clean, supplied. Who else is using them at the moment is not a major concern to me, as long as proper decorum is being observed. No loud cell phone talking, no panhandling, drug dealing, that sort of thing.

    The issue seems to be of primary importance to females, who fear that a male in disguise will be lurking about. The issue seems to be particularly volatile in schools (where students, parents, and staff all get involved).

    I have known, worked with, socialized with, and provided social services to maybe a dozen transgendered person. This goes back to the 1970s. In those earlier days of gay liberation, there was no separate movement for trans people, at least where I lived. Actually, among GLBT people, the 4 groups all had/have separate issues, sometimes with no overlap. We took shelter in 1 big tent, more or less peaceably.

    What I accept as a practical matter in my personal life (mostly tolerant of difference) is not the same as what I might theorize about philosophically. So, on a practical level, I have few problems with it. Contradictory? could be.
  • Bitter Crank
    8.8k
    I do disagree with you about weather or not someone can truly change their sex, because i think that changing you appearance, organs, and societal roles to match the opposite gender constitutes a sex change.sarah young

    I do agree with your definition of what constitutes "a sex change" as the term is used, to which we can add an official name change.

    All sorts of people decide to occupy deviant roles in life (deviant used here in the sociological sense of non-conforming). I grew up in a very conventional working class family. Once I left home after high school, I lived a much different, non-conforming kind of life than what I had practiced at home. Many of the people I associated with were pretty "far out" as the saying went.

    You might be gendered non-conforming, yet very conforming in other aspects of life. Fine by me, as long as you are not trying to be a ruthless capitalist.
  • ssu
    3.2k
    Yeah, of course you can change sex. I do it all the time.

    Sometimes on top, sometimes on the bottom, face to face or...uhhh, the other way. Kama Sutra comes up with some dandies.

    And of course there's...uhhh...uhhh...

    ...jeez, just occurred to me that I may have misunderstood where you were going with this.

    So...never mind.
    Frank Apisa
    No.

    You understood it totally and this is the correct answer. :ok:

    I stopped reading comments after that.
  • sarah young
    43
    What I accept as a practical matter in my personal life (mostly tolerant of difference)Bitter Crank

    honestly that is all I ask, that people tolerate my existence, and find a reason to hate me other than me being transgender.
  • Frank Apisa
    2.1k
    Most decent people will, Sarah.

    Be tolerant, that is...not hate you for any reason.
  • Frank Apisa
    2.1k
    By the way...I worked in New York back in the late 1970's early 1980's...and knew three people who were in transition back then...way before it became a thing.

    Great, great fun people. All three were men transitioning to women.

    Never has been an issue with me.
  • Artemis
    1.9k
    honestly that is all I ask, that people tolerate my existence, and find a reason to hate me other than me being transgender.sarah young

    Well, "sarah" what kind of name is that, I hate that name. Lol, jk!!

    But seriously, if anyone is a transphobe, they don't actually hate you, they hate what you represent, though I get that it comes out to many of the same actions in practice. But since they don't know you, they can't hate you. Just like racists don't actually hate individuals, they just hate the category of blacks or Mexicans or whatever. It sucks because that hatred of a category will stop people from getting to know the actually person behind the category, but it's not personal.
  • Artemis
    1.9k
    My question is, if you change so much about yourself down to the chromosomes to another sex, are you really you after all that? Or have you become a different person? How much can you change about a person before they are someone new?

    And, I don't think making your body match your mind is a thing, because I don't ascribe to mind/body dualism. Seems to me that especially changing chromosomes and hormones would result in changes of brain chemistry/structure and therefore of personality.
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