• jgill
    3.5k
    Perhaps the rules or arithmetic are not so arbitrary.Marchesk

    Hmmm. Now where did we come up with a number system base 10?

    The preference for consistency is one such rule.Banno

    Are my two axioms inconsistent? :roll:
  • Banno
    23.1k
    What do you think? Can you demonstrate their consistency?
  • jgill
    3.5k
    No, no, no ......! You have challenged my axioms. The ball is in your court! :nerd:
  • Marchesk
    4.6k
    The contention here is that this game has similarities to mathematics, in that the playful creation of rules is at the core of both.Banno

    So let's try this out. I as ruler of the nearby city demand you pay a tax. I have my soldiers take three oxen out of your six. You complain that this only leaves three oxen to plow the fields. My official reply is that six minus three is five, by decree. I have only removed one of your oxen.

    For some reason, that system doesn't last and is replaced by the 6 - 3 = 3 one we have today.
  • Banno
    23.1k
    the golden ratio is one of the patterns that we found. Just like counting and stuff. Some patters are useful.
  • Banno
    23.1k
    yep. Simple. 3+3=6. A pattern that is useful.
  • Marchesk
    4.6k
    A pattern that is useful.Banno

    Right, so is math about useful patterns, or about making up arbitrary games, like Chess and Go are made-up games with well defined rules that allow for interesting patterns?

    Or maybe both.
  • Banno
    23.1k
    same thing.
  • armonie
    82
    ぶという
  • Marchesk
    4.6k
    he patterns are forms, they are not useful, they are expressions in the extension of matter and energy.
    The forms are dynamic, and they have dependence of ....time.
    armonie

    Shades of Heraclitus?
  • armonie
    82
    行為です。
  • Banno
    23.1k
    Nu. They are just patterns. No need for any additional metaphysics.

    That’s part of the point of this approach.
  • god must be atheist
    5.1k
    I didn’t realize I was creating an inconsistency,Pfhorrest

    I don't mind your inconsistency. It is like the food I cook for my children... it has a certain uncertain flavour peppered with a consistency of indescribable inconsistency.

    At least we are consistent about this.
  • Marchesk
    4.6k
    Nu. They are just patterns. No need for any additional metaphysics.

    That’s part of the point of this approach.
    Banno

    So, the world-stuff creates patterns that we sometimes find useful and turn into mathematics and physics.
  • Banno
    23.1k
    So, the world-stuff creates patterns that we sometimes find useful and turn into mathematics and physics.Marchesk

    That says more about the world than is needed.

    Stuff does stuff. We make patterns. Sometimes we read patterns into what the stuff is doing.

    Less metaphysics. .
  • Per Chance
    21
    This is boring.
  • SophistiCat
    2.2k
    The sum of any two integers is zero.John Gill

    What are 'integers' in your game? The way integers are usually defined/constructed, they come with addition already baked in.
  • Harry Hindu
    4.9k
    Let's go back to their origins. How did humans come up with arithmetic? Probably when it became useful to track transactions and taxation. And that's not arbitrary.Marchesk
    Thats why I proposed the rule that Banno hand over 50% of his dough. I thought we should start where the ancients did when the rules were meant to be applicable in the world.
  • Harry Hindu
    4.9k
    Simple. 3+3=6. A pattern that is useful.Banno
    Useful for what? Why is a pattern useful?
  • frank
    14.5k
    Fun, useful, not silly: do you discover these things or do you declare them?

    And if you discover what's not silly, where was it before you found it?

    Merry Christmas! :sparkle:
  • jgill
    3.5k
    I hereby revoke my two axioms and my original frivolous statement about integers.

    Happy Holidays! :nerd:
  • Marchesk
    4.6k
    Ah, makes sense. I thought you were just pulling his leg.
  • Banno
    23.1k
    do you discover these things or do you declare them?frank

    I think I have to pay that.

    SO maths is made up, and we find - "discover" - ways to use it.
  • Banno
    23.1k
    Useful for what? Why is a pattern useful?Harry Hindu

    Whatever you like.

    Sometimes we impose.
  • frank
    14.5k
    maths is made up, and we find - "discover" - ways to use it.Banno

    Could be.
  • Harry Hindu
    4.9k
    Simple. 3+3=6. A pattern that is useful.
    — Banno
    Useful for what? Why is a pattern useful?
    Harry Hindu

    Whatever you like.

    Sometimes we impose.
    Banno
    How is 3+3=6 useful for knowing how much of my income the government wants? If the government wants 50% of my income, do I just write 50% on a sheet of paper and then give it to the government? Are we just writing scribbles with arbitrary rules? If so, then why isn't the government content with a sheet of paper with the scribbles 50% on it? What is 50% OF something? What does the "of" mean?

    SO maths is made up, and we find - "discover" - ways to use it.Banno
    The symbols are made up, but what they refer to isn't.
  • Banno
    23.1k
    meh.
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