• frank
    3.8k
    The Chinese government doesn't allow depictions of paranormality in Chinese movies. This is supposed to arise from some aspect of Marxism, but the unfortunate side effect is that the Chinese watch foreign movies on Halloween because their own avenue to superstitious catharsis is blocked by sensibilities. This made me think about the censoring of Galileo by the Catholic Church. Same tactics, opposing sides.

    I think the goal of censorship is broadly speaking to protect the population, but there is also a streak of aggression to it, as when Stalin erased purge victims from photos.

    Censorship is like a self administered antibiotic intended to kill something that has the potential to cause social disease. It's a dangerous drug because targets of censorship gain fame possibly beyond what they might have had. For instance: did I really need to read Naked Lunch? Was there anything redeeming about it? Not that I recall. But I read it.

    I'm going to take the stance that censorship has a place in human life. There is value in it despite its downside. The Chinese and Russians are presently taking advantage of the West's sentimental attachment to freedom of speech.

    The West should meet foreign intrusion with censorship. Who disagrees?
  • ovdtogt
    377
    The ability for humans to freely express themselves (in so far it does not intentionally demean other person(s)) should be considered a human right. Censorship is political violence.
  • frank
    3.8k
    The ability for humans to freely express themselves (in so far it does not intentionally demean other person(s)) should be considered a human right. Censorship is political violence.ovdtogt

    During wartime there's a fair amount of censorship designed to protect troops. Surely you don't argue against that?
  • ovdtogt
    377
    No I wouldn't argue with that. Using that analogy I would consider censorship to be a form of political (correctness) war perpetrated by the authorities on their own population.
  • frank
    3.8k
    No I wouldn't argue with that. Using that analogy I would consider censorship to be a form of political (correctness) war perpetrated by the authorities on their own population.ovdtogt

    Ideological warfare, yes. Shouldn't we wage war ideologically against fascism, for instance?

    Shouldn't we wage ideological war against climate change deniers?

    Shouldn't we isolate ourselves through censorship from foreign aggressors looking to undermine our decision making processes?
  • ovdtogt
    377
    Shouldn't we wage war ideologically against fascism, for instance?frank

    Censorship is the tool used by Fascist regimes to subjugate their citizens.

    Shouldn't we wage ideological war against climate change deniers?frank

    Yes. But also this is a war that is fought by propagation accurate information (scientific truths). It is not achieved through censorship. Preventing people from denying climate change is counter productive.

    Shouldn't we isolate ourselves through censorship from foreign aggressors looking to undermine our decision making processes?frank

    To an extent yes. The authorities are trying to 'censure' stop 'foreign aggressors' (China and Russia) to place ads with Google and Facebook to influence our political process.
  • Spirit12
    26
    Shouldn't we isolate ourselves through censorship from foreign aggressors looking to undermine our decision making processes?frank

    Depend on how you define foreign aggressors.

    If one is against an authority, through nothing but political ideology through civil disobedience, or a recognition that the authority is also looking to undermine our decision making process, then what is problem?
  • ovdtogt
    377
    Shouldn't we isolate ourselves through censorship from foreign aggressors looking to undermine our decision making processes?frank

    To an extent yes. The authorities are trying to 'censure' stop 'foreign aggressors' (China and Russia) to place ads with Google and Facebook to influence our political process.
  • ep3265
    36
    The reason censorship as a concept is belittling is because it restricts the mind to a subset of rules. The rules of the universe are already enough to constrain us, why need arbitrary conditions from a ruling government to do the same? In fact, we use censorship in our daily lives all the time on our own through social communication. If culture goes one way, we go along with it.
  • frank
    3.8k
    Shouldn't we wage war ideologically against fascism, for instance?
    — frank

    Censorship is the tool used by Fascist regimes to subjugate their citizens.
    ovdtogt

    They're just trying to protect their citizens. Do we love ourselves any less?

    we wage ideological war against climate change deniers?
    — frank

    Yes. But also this is a war that is fought by propagation accurate information (scientific truths). It is not achieved through censorship. Preventing people from denying climate change is counter productive.

    Shouldn't we isolate ourselves through censorship from foreign aggressors looking to undermine our decision making processes?
    — frank

    Again no. Not through isolation or censorship. Education, education, education....The exact opposite.
    ovdtogt

    That's a noble thought, unfortunately climate change deniers have usually been inoculated against education. They've been led to believe that apparently legit sources are actually arms of Noxious Leftist Propaganda. A person who uses the term "main stream media" has been inoculated. The grief of it is that some leftist sources actually are biased and prone to misinformation. With global warming, the bullshit is always more titillating than the drab old truth.

    We have to take matters into hand and censor. To do otherwise would show a lack of commitment.
  • frank
    3.8k
    one is against an authority, through nothing but political ideology through civil disobedience, or a recognition that the authority is also looking to undermine our decision making process, then what is problem?Spirit12

    Because nuclear war is on the trail started by this kind of interference.
  • ovdtogt
    377
    we use censorship in our daily lives all the time on our own through social communication.ep3265

    True. Self censorship is the price we already have to pay for being social animals.
  • frank
    3.8k
    The rules of the universe are already enough to constrain us,ep3265

    We wouldn't be stepping outside our universe in our efforts to censor. We'd be following the rule that says: Protect yourself.
  • ovdtogt
    377
    They're just trying to protect their citizens. Do we love ourselves any less?frank

    Can you give me an example of a regime that protects it's citizens from Fascism through censorship?

    I do agree with authorities that are trying to 'censure' stop 'foreign aggressors' (China and Russia) to place ads with Google and Facebook to influence our political process. These are external threats to our democracy.

    How do you envisage censoring the internal threat of 'climate deniers' and/or fascists?
  • ep3265
    36
    Right, and there's some merit to that. However, the use of government is entirely meant for keeping what the universe has granted to us, and finding certain highly impractical things, like killing, and outlawing them for the sake of our species continuation.
  • TheMadFool
    4.3k
    Censorship is like saying "I know what's good or bad for you" and no censorship is like saying "I know what's good or bad for me". Both seem wrong for who's so wise to know what's good or bad for himself or herself, let alone for anyone else.

    Anti-censorship is about truth of what is being said/written and censorship is about the dangerous effects of what is being said/written.

    Would you rather have censorship or an enraged mob with molotov cocktails outside your house? Perhaps it's a choice between knowing the truth and a fake peace that is liable to break down on the slightest provocation; the ensuing chaos being proportional to the length of time the truth was hidden?

    An interesting "fact" of censorship is that it exists and thrives in environments where the prevalent ideology or whatever can't stand up to scrutiny, requiring an additional line of defense in the form of a censor board. That should mean something if not everything there is about muzzling peoples' voices.
  • Spirit12
    26
    I thought nuclear war was on trail because nuclear weapons exist and the authority keeps spending paper and numbers on them. People care about the shit they put numbers into. Americans are only forgetful at math until it comes time to calculate the Tom Brady's percentages and averages.
  • frank
    3.8k
    Americans are only forgetful at math until it comes time to calculate the Tom Brady's percentages and averages.Spirit12

    They're also forgetful about numbers of casualties since nuclear would be the only way to defeat either Russia or China.
  • frank
    3.8k
    An interesting "fact" of censorship is that it exists and thrives in environments where the prevalent ideology or whatever can't stand up to scrutiny, requiring an additional line of defense in the form of a censor board. That should mean something if not everything there is about muzzling peoples' voices.TheMadFool

    True. But when I'm all righteous in my anti-fascism it doesn't occur to me that I might be wrong.

    All censorship is like that isnt it?
  • creativesoul
    6.9k
    What's needed is the ability to discriminate between truth and bullshit. Censorship doesn't help.
  • creativesoul
    6.9k


    Dont fret China. The Donald is looking to make a better deal. He will profit from it in the end. Russia? Don't fret them either. They own Donald's personal finances.
  • ovdtogt
    377
    As long as the majority of Chinese citizens believe their lives are improving they will accept the Party's censorship. As soon as they discover the only one's getting rich are the rich no amount of censorship will keep the masses under control.
  • TheMadFool
    4.3k
    True. But when I'm all righteous in my anti-fascism it doesn't occur to me that I might be wrong.

    All censorship is like that isnt it?
    frank

    :chin: Didn't get that. Sorry.
  • creativesoul
    6.9k


    That situation doesn't seem to end in the way you suggest. Look at 'The West'...
  • NOS4A2
    1.7k
    If you oppose fascism or communism it would help if you refrained from adopting one of their most beloved tactics.
  • creativesoul
    6.9k
    Media outlets censor all the time.
  • creativesoul
    6.9k
    Who decides the narrative? Who decides which terms will be used to talk about which situations? This is a form of censorship...
  • frank
    3.8k
    True. But when I'm all righteous in my anti-fascism it doesn't occur to me that I might be wrong.

    All censorship is like that isnt it?
    — frank

    :chin: Didn't get that. Sorry.
    TheMadFool

    You said it's creeds that feel vulnerable to scrutiny that resort to censorship. I agree, but censors are always sure that their fight is important.

    My story about Chinese horror movies and Galileo was supposed to convey that everybody does it.

    Sorry, for some reason theres a secondary spell check,l on this site which is making typing by phone an obstacle course.
  • frank
    3.8k
    Who decides the narrative? Who decides which terms will be used to talk about which situations? This is a form of censorship...creativesoul

    It's all relative to the size of your steeple.
  • frank
    3.8k
    If you oppose fascism or communism it would help if you refrained from adopting one of their most beloved tactics.NOS4A2

    Everybody does it.
  • NOS4A2
    1.7k


    Everybody does it.

    Many once practiced slavery. But that everyone does it certainly isn’t an argument against its opposite.
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