• Valentinus
    A question that arose in that thread, that concerns me is why aren't the majority of Abrahamic religions more left-leaning rather than being conservative in nature?Wallows

    The emphasis upon what happens to an individual soul became equivalent to the idea of property as used in various forms of common law and various theories of natural right.
    Hegel based his idea of Rights upon this notion. Marx used Hegel's description to try and reverse the logic of it.
    Maybe neither thinker understood what is involved with the idea.
  • christian2017
    A very powerful description of how the powerful subvert the true meaning of social reform can be read in the book 'Animal Farm' by George Orwell.ovdtogt

    Animal Farm was written prior to the automation and globalization on the scale that we have it in our modern age. I agree the book Animal Farm has many important things to consider but I feel the R.I.N.O as well as the Liberal Elite very often summarize the problem with the poor as "they don't work hard enough".
  • Gnomon
    Smart... Real smart.. That makes a lot of sense. Jesus must have been a genius for his time to predict the outcome of his preaching. Or at least highly emotionally intelligentReverie
    Jesus didn't have be too smart to predict the Roman suppression of sedition; just a basic knowledge of Jewish history. He had a series of predecessors, back to the Maccabeans, who were either killed in battle or executed for insurrection against oppression by gentile world powers. That may also explain why Paul decided, if you can't beat'em, join'em. :smile:
  • deletedmemberMD
    I have not read the Kabbalah. Can you summarise or expand on that?

    Same Joseph as Genesis, son of Jacob. Islam identifies him as a Prophet.

    So you're familiar with the story of Joseph being sold into slavery by his jealous brothers and his interpretations of Akhanatens dreams? 7 years of plenty followed by 7 of famine will blight the land?
  • Possibility
    A similar development took place in the United States, particularly in New England, the Upper Midwest, and Northwest, secular and religious culture produced large religious and non-profit social service, education, and medical establishments. The St. Joseph sisters (several varieties) were a part of this. So were Methodists, Lutherans, Jews, et al.

    To a large extent, that legacy has withered. After the 1960s exodus of church membership across the church (Protestant and Catholic both), and the abrupt shrinkage of the lay orders, the churches began to lose the economic/membership base that had supported their work.

    St. Joseph Carondelet nuns, for instance, were forced to sell their group of hospitals as they shrank and aged out of the capacity to continue on. Actually, the religious & non-profit hospitals were a high-water mark in both cost effectiveness and quality of delivered services.
    Bitter Crank

    Interesting, that hasn’t happened here - probably thanks to government support. There are very few sisters still teaching or working in hospitals, and yet both remain a benchmark for service quality and cost-effectiveness. Despite the dramatic fall in church membership and lay orders, the Catholic education systems here have grown from strength to strength since the 1960s, and currently hold a lot of sway in the overall education system in Australia - too much, some would argue. Even most major public hospitals here have a private catholic hospital nearby or on the premises. The public-private choice here is very different to the US, from what little I’ve seen. Less pronounced, perhaps? Idk
  • Shawn
    Hegel based his idea of Rights upon this notion. Marx used Hegel's description to try and reverse the logic of it.
    Maybe neither thinker understood what is involved with the idea.

    Do go on... I'm having a hard time connecting the dots here.
  • christian2017

    I'm not a big fan of the Kabbalah. I would rather not elaborate. No offense but you are probably better off looking it up yourself. Orthodox Jews don't recognize the Kabbalah.

    I'm fairly familiar with the story of Joseph. I was not aware he had a book.
  • deletedmemberMD
    in Islam he does but either way its the narrative I want us to look at.

    This story influences my political outlook. That of adaptive centrist; knowing when to conserve and when to be liberal and in what areas of life. For example in the case of resources, I want the government to be more liberal in certain key policies but businesses need to be far more conservative. Particularly the tech industry.

    Joseph's role in saving Egypt from famine was that of knowing when to conserve and when to give.

    I am not a single issue voter so a centrist is the only intelligent thing to call myself.
  • christian2017

    most republicans are centrists even if they claim not to be. I don't like most Republicans because they typically blame the problem of the poor on not working hard enough. I don't expect you scroll up through this particular forum topic but i noted solutions elsewhere on the internet that adhere to a completely free market.
  • Valentinus

    In Marx's Critique of Hegel's Dialectic and General Philosophy (1844), the matter of being alienated by the objective world is examined side by side with theology. It is hard to decide where to jump into this text but the following points to the distinctions made in my remark. Marx claims Hegel is saying:

    "Man, who has realized that in law, politics, etc, he leads an alienated life, leads his true human life in this alienated life as such. Self-affirmation, self-confirmation in contradiction with itself and with the knowledge and the nature of the object is therefore true knowledge and true life.

    Therefore there can no longer be any question about a compromise on Hegel's part with religion, the state, etc., since this untruth is the untruth of his principle.

    If I know religion as alienated human self-consciousness, then what I know in it as religion is not my self-consciousness but my alienated self-consciousness confirmed in it. Thus I know that the self-consciousness which belongs to the essence of my own self is not confirmed in religion but in the destruction and supersession of religion.

    In Hegel, therefore, the negation of the negation is not the confirmation of true being through the negation of apparent being. It is the confirmation of apparent being or self-estranged being residing outside man and independent of him and its transformation into the subject.

    The act of superseding therefore plays a special role in which negation and preservation (affirmation) are brought together.

    Thus, for example, in Hegel's Philosophy of Right, private right superseded equals morality, morality superseded equals family, family superseded equals civil society, civil society superseded equals state and state superseded equals world history. In reality private right, morality, family, civil society, state, etc.,continue to exist, but have become moments and modes of human existence which are meaningless in isolation but which mutually dissolve and engender one another. They are moments of movement."
    — Marx, edited by John Raines

    The loose inflated bladder in this scrum of an essay is how discussions of Nature are involved with accepting one narrative of what is happening over other narratives. Somehow, the discussion of the idea of loving the neighbor as oneself got entangled with seeing the world as a cold blue ball.
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