" it can be easily shown to be highly probable: like all existential statements, it is in an infinite (or sufficiently large) universe almost logically true,"
Isn't he just speculating on the multiverse theory that postulates an infinite number of copies of You exists. This can make the logical conclusion that a probable copy of You exist also? — ovdtogt
That way he could have treated scientific laws and the demon summing example uniformly and symmetrically, by saying that both lack empirical content - the former in not being verifiable in requiring infinite confirmation, and the latter in not being falsifiable in begging potentially infinite consideration. — sime
I think Popper is basically concerned about induction - the lifeblood of science. — TheMadFool
My understanding is that Popper rejected induction, and saw science as being a combination of abduction (conjecture and prediction) and observation. Failure to observe the predicted outcomes of a theory constitutes falsification which leads to refutation of the theory.
Induction is reduced to just the (ungrounded?) expectation that nature will continue to behave in the ways it has been observed to behave in the past. — Janus
Moreover, it can be easily shown to be highly probable: like all existential statements, it is in an infinite (or sufficiently large) universe almost logically true, to use an expression of Carnap's. — Popper
Yeah I got that. Popper was talking about "possible worlds" in the context of modal logic though. — Ying
The whole talk about "possible worlds" isn't an ontic claim, here — Ying
I think it's pretty clear that he is making an ontic claim - he says so himself (it's a "purely existential" statement). — SophistiCat
He is tilting against the windmill of probabilistic confirmation, and I don't see how modal logic could possibly help him in that.
Isn't he just speculating on the Multiverse theory that postulates an infinite number of copies of You exists. This can make the logical conclusion that a probable copy of You exist also?
I am not postulating on 'possible worlds' but on the existence of an infinite number of Universes.
What? The claim that the universe is infinite/sufficiently large? He's not referring to that. He's saying that the devil summoning thing, "like all existential statements", "in an infinite (or sufficiently large) universe" is "almost logically true". — Ying
Yes, and I don't see how this is a modal argument (the size of the universe wouldn't be relevant for that). His language here is sloppy, but he is, I think, alluding to something like a Boltzmann Brain situation, where through a random fluctuation of particles it could happen that certain words are spoken, immediately followed by something like a "devil" materializing in the vicinity. In a large enough universe, so the argument goes, this is almost certain to happen somewhere, some time, thus providing a specious verification for the existential claim. As it happens, though this wasn't what Popper had in mind, a multiverse (the actual, not the modal kind) would have served just as well for his argument. — SophistiCat
Verifying scientific theories though important don't provide us with certainty since no finite sample of past verifications is representative of the infinite future. — TheMadFool
1. If theory A is true then the predictions X, Y, Z must be true
2. Predictions X, Y, Z aren't true
Ergo
3. Theory A is false — TheMadFool
As I said before Popper sees verifiability and falsifiability as two distinct concepts. I can't see the difference in the way you described the scientific method. I see verifiability and falsifiability as two sides of the same coin.
In the example I gave above, theory A is verifiable because of the predictions it makes but the fact that these predictions can turn up false means falsifiability is built into the principle of verifiability. — TheMadFool
The only quibble I have with this-and it isn't substantive- is that I would have said "predictions X, Y, Z would be observed — Janus
The above argument looks ok but actually has a flaw in that when predictions fail to materialize (aren't observed) it doesn't always mean the theory in question is false. Take for example the classic case: All swans are white. If you fail to observe white swans it doesn't mean that the claim is false. It just means that you haven't discovered evidence for the claim. The only way we can say that the claim, all swans are white, is false is by observing a non-white swan. — TheMadFool
Why is falsification more important than verification to Popper? I think the reason has to do with induction failing to provide definitive truth. If we are to put our trust in a theory it can't be based on it being true because the nature of induction only allows for tentative truth. — TheMadFool
This one example doesn't work. If one fails to see any swans period, then the proposition of "all swans are white" is no better than "all unicorns are white" - and there are no grounds to believe that swans are real (much less that they're only white) due to the proposition being unfalsifiable (here simplifying things by not introducing reasoned conclusions, such as could apply to the probability of alien life). However, if one does observe swans but fails to see a white swan, then the proposition is falsified.
Can't think of a different example to substantiate the claim you want to make. Maybe you can? — javra
However, if that addressed is falsifiable and if we are unable to falsify it despite our best attempts, then it gives all indications of in fact conforming to that which is ontic (else, of accurately corresponding to that which is real), i.e. of being true. — javra
To this effect, hypothesize that a falsifiable proposition or theory is impossible to falsify both in practice *and* in principle. By what reasoning could one claim that this proposition or theory holds any chance of being untrue? — javra
Let me cheat and use categorical logic to show that indeed I am, very surprisingly to me, right.
All swans are white in logic doesn't have existential import unlike its negation: Some swans are black which can only be true if and only if there is at least one black swan.
Lacking claims of existence the proposition: All swans are white, is true even if you never saw a swan let alone white swans. I think in predicate logic the statement gets translated as:
IF x is a swan then x is white. Emphasis on "if". — TheMadFool
Aside from a contradiction in your statement which I expect to carry some deep meaning I'll focus on the words "impossible to falsify". Such statements would be metaphysical for Popper, right? — TheMadFool
However, if that addressed is falsifiable and if we are unable to falsify it despite our best attempts, then it gives all indications of in fact conforming to that which is ontic (else, of accurately corresponding to that which is real), i.e. of being true. — javra
This thread is about empirical knowledge, I presumed, not axiomatic claims. Aside from which, how would "all unicorns are white" not be a true statement given the system of logic you're presented? — javra
OK, too brief in the expression. No contradiction intended. What I was addressing is a proposition that is epistemically falsifiable but not ontically falsifiable. This presumes that our knowledge is imperfect. To better illustrate via example: I say "all swans are either black or white" while holding imperfect knowledge of the world; I could falsify this claim by observing a red swan in some remote location; so its epistemically falsifiable. However, reality has it (here assuming a perfect knowledge of the world) that only black and white swans exist. So no matter how much I - the one with fallible knowledge - look in attempts to falsify this proposition, I will never be able to. Because only black and white swans exist, the proposition is not possible to falsify ontically. — javra
Let's take an empirical claim such as: All objects obey the laws of gravity. Notice that it is a Aristotelean categorical statement. Isn't it necessary then to consider the logical character of such statements before we talk of its empirical import? What do you think? — TheMadFool
If a scientific theory is categorically true then it is ontically unfalsifiable and the only way we can know that is to show that it's epistemically unfalsifiable. — TheMadFool
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