• 180 Proof
    1.1k
    while minorities and women face discrimination, that does not cancel out the discrimination of everyone else.sarah young
    Strawman.

    We should work towards equality, not towards superiority.
    We have always worked, and still do work, against those who have always worked, and still do work, "towards superiority". This sort of special pleading stinks of "victim envy". Compared to the grossly ubiquitous normativity of systemic discrimination against nonwhite, female & nonbinary persons, incidents of anti-'straight white male' discrimination are de minimis and, more significantly, not systemic (after all 'the system' is, in fact, controlled by 'straight white male' elites predominately for the benefit of 'straight white male' elites ...)
  • sarah young
    43
    This sort of special pleading stinks of "victim envy". Compared to the grossly ubiquitous normativity of systemic discrimination against nonwhite, female & nonbinary persons, incidents of anti-'straight white male' discrimination are de minimis and, more significantly, not systemic (after all 'the system' is, in fact, controlled by 'straight white male' elites predominately for the benefit of 'straight white male' elites ...)180 Proof

    Victim envy? I am not straight, white, cis, or male, so no. And you are right the system is controlled by predominantly white elites but it is to the benefit of all of the elites, and does not protect the common straight, white man and the system is actually rigged against all commenors not just commoners that are minorities. There is systemic discrimination against almost any majority as well as minority, the only majority that is not descriminated against is straight, cisgender people and they don't get special treatment either, like I have said before I am not trying to cover up any oppression against anyone just bring to light that other people have to deal with racism and sexism every day too. Also one final note, nothing has to be systemic to be valid someone can be racist to a white person and whether or not you believe it is systemic it is still racism.
  • frank
    5k
    Aren't most straight white male victims of discrimination poor? Like with a biker tatto?
  • sarah young
    43
    Aren't most straight white male victims of discrimination poor? Like with a biker tatto?frank

    Yes, but aren't most victims of discrimination period poor, like I don't see any millionaires being descriminated against
  • frank
    5k
    Yes, but aren't most victims of discrimination period poor, like I don't see any millionaires being descriminated againstsarah young

    Exactly. Money is the great equalizer. That is the great capitalist virtue.
  • sarah young
    43
    Exactly. Money is the great equalizer. That is the great capitalist virtue.frank

    Well yeah but in America if you are born poor there is a good chance you and every single one of your descendants will be poor
  • frank
    5k
    Well yeah but in America if you are born poor there is a good chance you and every single one of your descendants will be poorsarah young

    No social system has fixed that problem so far. There is no substitute for finding the ladder and getting your ass up onto it.
  • sarah young
    43
    No social system has fixed that problem so far. There is no substitute for finding the ladder and getting your ass up onto it.frank

    I'm talking about specifically America where this is a problem. This is not a problem in most of the western world.
  • frank
    5k
    I'm talking about specifically America where this is a problem. This is not a problem in most of the western world.sarah young

    If you mean there's greater wealth disparity in the US, I wouldn't be surprised. If you're saying there is less social mobility, I'd be interested in statistics that demonstrate that.
  • sarah young
    43
    If you're saying there is less social mobility, I'd be interested in statistics that demonstrate that.frank

    "The notion that anyone in America who is willing and able to “pull themselves up by their bootstraps” can achieve significant upward mobility is deeply embedded in U.S. society. Conventional wisdom holds that class barriers in the United States are the lowest among the world’s advanced economies." -the economic policy institute
    "The relationship between father-son earnings is tighter in the United States than in most peer OECD countries, meaning U.S. mobility is among the lowest of major industrialized economies. The relatively low correlations between father-son earnings in Scandinavian countries provide a stark contradiction to the conventional wisdom. An elasticity of 0.47 found in the United States offers much less likelihood of moving up than an elasticity of 0.18 or less, as characterizes Finland, Norway, and Denmark." - the economic policy institute
    "eight countries studied—Canada, Denmark, Finland, Sweden, Norway, Germany, the UK and the US, the US had both the highest economic inequality and lowest economic mobility. In this and other studies, in fact, the USA has very low mobility at the lowest rungs of the socioeconomic ladder, with mobility increasing slightly as one goes up the ladder."-wikipedia
  • frank
    5k
    Cool. But you could understand why comparing the US to countries that are the approximate sizes of US states is problematic. Let's compare Massachusetts to Norway. Either that or fold Norway into a mix that includes Greece and Italy. You know what I mean?

    But still, point taken. What is it that makes social mobility greater in these countries?
  • sarah young
    43
    But still, point taken. What is it that makes social mobility greater in these countries?frank

    You know what, I'll actually have to look into that because at this point I really don't know
  • frank
    5k
    You know what, I'll actually have to look into that because at this point I really don't knowsarah young

    :up:
  • sarah young
    43

    Okay so looking into it I found a few things, so here is the gist of it
    "Hout argues we have been misled by the fact that, for the Baby Boomer generation, pretty much everybody experienced upward mobility as part of the post-World War II economic boom. "Ninety percent of young adults earned more than their parents did, and 60 percent worked in higher-status occupations," he notes.

    This was due to "broad economic growth and occupational transformation, not from equal chances to take advantage of opportunity," he writes. The waning of these trends in recent decades, he adds, has "unmasked" the reality that people from lower socioeconomic backgrounds have a tough time moving up."
    "This view approximates that of a majority of Americans. According to the World Values Survey, 70% of Americans believe that the poor can make it out of poverty on their own. This contrasts sharply with attitudes in Europe, where only 35% believe the same thing. Put another way, most Europeans consider the poor unfortunate, while most Americans consider them indolent. This may be one reason why European countries support more generous – and costlier – welfare transfers than the US." -world economic forums
    "According to survey research that colleagues and I recently conducted and analyzed, Americans estimate that among children in the lowest income bracket, 12% will make it to the top bracket by the time they retire. Americans also believe that with hard work, only 22% of children in poverty today will remain there as adults.

    The actual numbers are 8% and 33%, respectively. In other words, Americans overestimate upward social mobility and underestimate the likelihood of remaining stuck in poverty for generations. They also believe that if everyone worked hard, the American Dream of self-made success would hew closer to reality."
    "European respondents are more pessimistic about mobility: unlike Americans, they overestimate the odds of remaining in poverty. For example, French, Italian, and British respondents said, respectively, that 35%, 34%, and 38% of low-income children will remain poor, when the reality is that 29%, 27%, and 31% will."
    I tried to find more sources to back these two sites credibility, but I couldn't find any more that said why, not that, America is doing poorly here
  • fdrake
    3.6k
    No social system has fixed that problem so far. There is no substitute for finding the ladder and getting your ass up onto it.frank

    It's a general trend that income inequality and social immobility are linearly related.

    The_Great_Gatsby_Curve.png

    The only substitute for finding the ladder is building public access stairs.
  • ssu
    2.5k
    It's a general trend that income inequality and social immobility are linearly related.fdrake
    I would have suspected that the UK has high immobility (low social mobility) as it is one of the most traditional class societies. And the stats do tell it.

    You can correct inequality through wealth transfers, but you cannot change people when they actually love their class society.

    (Reminds me of the story of a Finnish bank manager who went to lead the UK subsidiary. Trying to socialize with his British assistant manager, the Finn thought they would have something in common with sports and took the British banker to watch a football match in London, a thing the Finn had never done before. Well, it was a first for them both.)

    The statistic also tells well the story of Latin America. Bigger the portion of the Indian population, bigger the immobility.
  • frank
    5k
    This was due to "broad economic growth and occupational transformation, not from equal chances to take advantage of opportunity," he writes. The waning of these trends in recent decades, he adds, has "unmasked" the reality that people from lower socioeconomic backgrounds have a tough time moving up."sarah young

    Makes sense. In the US, the economy has continued to expand and prosper, but wages stagnated. Which do you think has the biggest impact on prosperity and social mobility: internal policies or external factors like war (whether cold or hot)?
  • frank
    5k
    The only substitute for finding the ladder is building public access stairs.fdrake

    It can make a huge difference, which I know from experience. You still have to hustle.
  • sarah young
    43
    Which do you think has the biggest impact on prosperity and social mobility: internal policies or external factors like war (whether cold or hot)?frank

    internal politics, I mean they have made living wages almost impossible to find and now 40% of americans are below poverty, and they also caused the costs for higher education and medicine to rise to higher than they have ever been, at speeds as high as 20 times the rate of inflation, steadying out at 8 and 12 times the the inflation rate respectively
  • Qwex
    366
    Some babies are born black - other babies have different skin pigmentation.

    Though, it's not all about skin pigmentation; it's about genetic build.

    Race is not a social construct. Different, non-relative genetic builds occur naturally.

    Animals in the Southern Hemisphere, are nurtured by the Earth and Sun a lot differently than those in the Northern Hemisphere.

    The human vessel evovles differently in different parts of the world.
  • frank
    5k
    40% of americans are below poverty,sarah young

    Do you mean 40 million and 13 percent?

    But why are internal factors more potent than external ones?
  • sarah young
    43
    [ quote="frank;372487"]40% of americans are below poverty,
    — sarah young

    Do you mean 40 million and 13 percent?[/quote]

    No I actually meant "below or near" poverty, but those are the correct figures for what i actually said, and why is a really good question that I do not know the answer to, but I could make a guess. Maybe corporations have been funding the government and trying to make laws that are helpful to corporations but perhaps harmful to the common man.
  • NOS4A2
    3.2k


    Some babies are born black - other babies have different skin pigmentation.

    Though, it's not all about skin pigmentation; it's about genetic build.

    Race is not a social construct. Different, non-relative genetic builds occur naturally.

    Animals in the Southern Hemisphere, are nurtured by the Earth and Sun a lot differently than those in the Northern Hemisphere.

    The human vessel evovles differently in different parts of the world.

    A human’s genes come from his parents, not from groups of people.
  • Qwex
    366
    Also grandparents, ancestors.
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