• boethius
    297
    What specific military actions in question? Are you causing "using excessive force" a "specific military action"?Terrapin Station

    Yes, to come to the conclusion that the military in question is using excessive force, it is necessary to observe, directly or indirectly, specific military actions. If no specific military actions occurred then it is difficult to argue excessive force occurred. Maybe the OP has no information on any specifics nor any knowledge of living in a country with a military, it's all just assumed with no evidence of any kind; if so, it is best to address the OP if that's your contention.
  • Pfhorrest
    159
    The exact quote

    the military in question causes a lot of unjustified harm by using excessive forceSightsOfCold

    suggests that the OP has particular real actions by his particular military in mind. He doesn't say explicitly that it's a war per se, so Terrapin wins that point on a technicality, but it's an irrelevant point: as boethius says, OP has concluded that his military is doing something unjust, whether or not that something is specifically a war (if any application of military force can really be counted as "not war" besides on legal technicalities), and the rest of the reasoning follows from there. It us unjust to knowingly aid in an unjust action. This isn't a scenario of whether it's unjust to agree to follow the orders of an organization that might end up doing something unjust. OP knows (or at least believes) that his military is doing things that are unjust.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.3k
    suggests that the OP has particular real actions by his particular military in mind. He doesn't say explicitly that it's a war per se, so Terrapin wins that point on a technicality,Pfhorrest

    Really, I was trying to figure out what the F boethius was on about, because it made no sense to me. I gave my response to whether I think the military is worthwhile, and boethius started bitching about it with some more or less unintelligible criticism.
  • Pfhorrest
    159
    Seemed quite intelligible to me. :shrug:
  • Terrapin Station
    13.3k
    Seemed quite intelligible to me. :shrug:Pfhorrest

    Then maybe you could explain it to me in a way that makes sense. What specific military action do you think the initial post of the thread is asking about, where you think my response wasn't addressing what he was asking--namely, whether he should join the military, whether we think it's worthwhile.
  • Pfhorrest
    159
    I'll give it a shot, sure.

    OP doesn't name which specific military actions he's thinking of, but it looks clear to me that he has some in mind; that he is aware of his military doing harm, and he doesn't want to participate in that, for moral reasons.

    It looks to me like boethius interpreted your post (and I find it a reasonable interpretation) as expressing general support for there being a military and for people serving in it, and that boethius is contrasting that general support for there being a military with the OP's concern about some particular (unspecified) things his particular military is doing.

    You can be in support of there being a military in general, as you evidently are, but be opposed to the particular actions that your particular military are doing, and so oppose it and decline to aid it until such time as it stops doing that.

    Even if you've already signed up for military service before you discover that your military is going to send you to do unjust things, you can still refuse to participate. Your military will punish you, of course, because they want obedience, but it's up to you to decide whether the moral consequences of your actions outweighs the practical consequences you will face otherwise.
  • Gnomon
    103
    I'm set to enlist in the military but I have the option of not serving if I want to (by acquiring an exemption) so I was debating whether it would be morally right to serve or not.SightsOfCold
    In the United States, and in most of Europe, your moral quandary would be purely hypothetical, because those nations no longer have enforced conscription. If you live in a country with mandatory conscription though, many of them have provisions for alternative service that does not require killing or being killed.

    Your philosophical position may hinge on the presumed consequences of your choice. Will your example serve to bring an end to War? Will someone else have to take your place on the battlefield? As with most moral dilemmas, there is no clear & ultimate & rational right-or-wrong answer to your question. You may eventually have to decide based on your personal feelings --- or just cop-out and let someone else decide for you.

    BTW : The morality of Military Exemptions themselves have been debated, since it's typically the rich who benefit (e.g. Trump's bone spurs), while the poor have no way out.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.3k
    I'll give it a shot, sure.

    OP doesn't name which specific military actions he's thinking of, but it looks clear to me that he has some in mind; that he is aware of his military doing harm, and he doesn't want to participate in that, for moral reasons.

    It looks to me like boethius interpreted your post (and I find it a reasonable interpretation) as expressing general support for there being a military and for people serving in it, and that boethius is contrasting that general support for there being a military with the OP's concern about some particular (unspecified) things his particular military is doing.

    You can be in support of there being a military in general, as you evidently are, but be opposed to the particular actions that your particular military are doing, and so oppose it and decline to aid it until such time as it stops doing that.

    Even if you've already signed up for military service before you discover that your military is going to send you to do unjust things, you can still refuse to participate. Your military will punish you, of course, because they want obedience, but it's up to you to decide whether the moral consequences of your actions outweighs the practical consequences you will face otherwise.
    Pfhorrest

    He's asking if he should join the military, where he's having some doubts about it, because he doesn't necessarily agree with the way military utilizes force in every situation, where he's being very general, not specific about that, and where he realizes that such use of force is probably necessary.

    So I gave my opinion that it's worthwhile, from many angles, despite his doubts about it. It's typical for people to have doubts about the military--if nothing else, people are usually afraid of going through basic training. It's worth conquering one's fears/doubts about it because it has a lot of rewards.
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