• creativesoul
    6.2k
    Some things exist in their entirety prior to the first report of them.

    Hmmm... Is that an understatement? Perhaps.

    All things exist in their entirety prior to the first report of them.

    I like that much better. Seems odd. I'm willing to defend the assertion.

    Any takers?
  • PoeticUniverse
    733
    All things exist in their entirety prior to the first report of them.creativesoul

    Or (as like the block universe):

    All events exist always.

    (That is, they can't become, as from non-existence, thus they are ever.)
  • creativesoul
    6.2k
    Don't see the similarity.

    Events are what happened and/or is happening. What happened yesterday may or may not still be happening today.

    So, I would not agree with the claim that all events exist always.
  • alcontali
    705
    All things exist in their entirety prior to the first report of them.creativesoul

    In quantum entanglement, any measurement of a property of a particle performs an irreversible collapse on that particle and will change the original quantum state. In the case of entangled particles, such a measurement will be on the entangled system as a whole.

    Apparently, such property has no definite value until you measure it.
    It is the act of measuring itself that forces the property to adopt a value ("collapse").

    Well, that is what they report back from weird corners in nuclear physics.

    Einstein had complained about that. He said that quantum mechanics would lead to weird, paradoxical outcomes, and therefore, that there was something wrong with quantum mechanics. What happened later on, however, is that experiments managed to reproduce the weird outcomes that Einstein had complained about ...
  • creativesoul
    6.2k
    In quantum entanglement, any measurement of a property of a particle performs an irreversible collapse on that particle and will change the original quantum state. In the case of entangled particles, such a measurement will be on the entangled system as a whole.

    Apparently, such property has no definite value until you measure it.
    alcontali

    So, what exactly did not exist - in it's entirety - prior to the first report of it?
  • alcontali
    705
    So, what exactly did not exist - in it's entirety - prior to the first report of it?creativesoul

    That what they will measure, does not exist, until they measure it.
  • creativesoul
    6.2k
    Are you saying that sub atomic particles have no spatiotemporal location, spin, momentum, etc. prior to our measurement?
  • HarryBalsagna
    7
    Today is tomorrow's yesterday... but if tomorrow never comes, how soon is now?
  • Coben
    952
    This an answer to that question, not one related to particles.

    The experience.
  • creativesoul
    6.2k


    Hmmm...

    Which experience?
  • fishfry
    816
    All things exist in their entirety prior to the first report of them.

    I like that much better. Seems odd. I'm willing to defend the assertion.

    Any takers?
    creativesoul

    Fiction.

    Facts are true even before we know them. The sun was a flaming ball of gas long before we discovered that fact.

    But fiction comes into existence at the moment a human conceives it. Ahab became captain of the Pequod when Melville decreed it. Before Melville wrote the novel, there was no Pequod and there was no Ahab.

    Perhaps we can refine your idea to: Truths about actual things were always true long before we discovered them. But truths about fictional things become true when someone says so.
  • creativesoul
    6.2k
    All things exist in their entirety prior to the first report of them.

    I like that much better. Seems odd. I'm willing to defend the assertion.

    Any takers?
    — creativesoul

    Fiction...

    ...Ahab became captain of the Pequod when Melville decreed it. Before Melville wrote the novel, there was no Pequod and there was no Ahab.
    fishfry

    The novel existed in it's entirety prior to the first report of it. Melville reported upon something that existed in it's entirety while writing the novel as well. Prior to the report, Ahab and the Pequod was a collection of Melville's own thoughts, beliefs, and ideas.

    The report/novel does not shed light on that.
  • TheMadFool
    4k
    Well, we could go for some kind of Platonism that the true good form exists out there somewhere like a well in a village and people come to the well with their buckets and take water from it which I would like to compare with what you call report.

    In a way
    All things exist in their entirety prior to the first report of them.creativesoul

    but I think we need to keep in my mind that the report is about a specific arrangement of things which some might contend that didn't exist before.
  • alcontali
    705
    Are you saying that sub atomic particles have no spatiotemporal location, spin, momentum, etc. prior to our measurement?creativesoul

    It is not clear. There are different interpretations possible for the Schrödinger's cat thought experiment, one of which is that pre-measurement values are really confused and indeterminate. Einstein did not like this interpretation a bit. But then again, if this interpretation turns out to be resilient to falsification by experimental testing, then subatomic reality is simply to be considered confused.
  • S
    11.8k
    I find it very strange that you obsess over the same oddly worded truisms. Yes, stuff existed before people first started talking about stuff. Perhaps it's time you moved on.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.3k
    All things exist in their entirety prior to the first report of them.creativesoul

    The exception would be the report itself. That can't exist prior to the report. It would work for everything else, I suppose, since in order to make a report about something, it has to exist, you have to observe it/become aware of it, formulate the report, etc.
  • 3017amen
    736


    Excellent post, subscribed!!!
  • 3017amen
    736


    I'm sure I'm missing something because it can't be this easy. To re-word what Poetic said: all events must have a cause.

    Let's assume there's a high probability that that's true. Then wouldn't that also assume that energy created is never lost?
  • tim wood
    3.2k
    Or, the report itself is not prior to its existence.
  • fishfry
    816
    The novel existed in it's entirety prior to the first report of it. Melville reported upon something that existed in it's entirety while writing the novel as well. Prior to the report, Ahab and the Pequod was a collection of Melville's own thoughts, beliefs, and ideas.creativesoul

    Wait, what? Did Ahab and the Pequod exist before Melville existed?

    Of course it's an interesting fact that Moby Dick is based on a true story. The whaling ship Essex was attacked and sunk by a whale. But of course all fiction is based on or inspired by some aspect of reality. That doesn't mean the characters of the novel existed before the author conceived of them.

    Is there a point in time, in your opinion, in which Ahab did not exist? Or perhaps you mean to regard him as an archetype? The charismatic fanatic luring others to their doom? That's an eternal theme in human affairs.

    But I'm not sure how to take your remark literally. The sun has always been a flaming ball of ga; but Ahab has not always been the captain of the Pequod. That's the thesis I am putting forth.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essex_(whaleship)
  • creativesoul
    6.2k
    the novel existed in it's entirety prior to the first report of it. Melville reported upon something that existed in it's entirety while writing the novel as well. Prior to the report, Ahab and the Pequod was a collection of Melville's own thoughts, beliefs, and ideas.
    — creativesoul

    Wait, what? Did Ahab and the Pequod exist before Melville existed?
    fishfry

    Not on my view. Melville's thought, belief, and ideas cannot exist prior to Melville.



    Of course it's an interesting fact that Moby Dick is based on a true story. The whaling ship Essex was attacked and sunk by a whale. But of course all fiction is based on or inspired by some aspect of reality. That doesn't mean the characters of the novel existed before the author conceived of them.

    Agreed.


    Is there a point in time, in your opinion, in which Ahab did not exist? Or perhaps you mean to regard him as an archetype? The charismatic fanatic luring others to their doom? That's an eternal theme in human affairs.

    There is a time before Ahab. Prior to Melville's thought, belief, and ideas.


    But I'm not sure how to take your remark literally. The sun has always been a flaming ball of ga; but Ahab has not always been the captain of the Pequod. That's the thesis I am putting forth.

    He's been the captain ever since Melville made him so.

    Perhaps we can refine your idea to: Truths about actual things were always true long before we discovered them. But truths about fictional things become true...fishfry

    I don't call true statements or true propositions "truths".
  • S
    11.8k
    The novel existed in it's entirety prior to the first report of it.creativesoul

    :rofl:

    It's not possible for anyone to have an entire novel of that size in their head! Your title is spot on.

    (And no, a rough outline or collection of ideas is not an entire novel).
  • fresco
    549
    :grin:

    "Man is the measure of all things" Protagoras
    "All we call observation is verbal" Maturana
    "Language speaks the Man" Heidegger ( not vice versa !)

    Have fun.
  • god must be atheist
    920
    The novel existed in it's entirety prior to the first report of it.
    — creativesoul

    :rofl:

    It's not possible for anyone to have an entire novel of that size in their head! Your title is spot on.

    (And no, a rough outline or collection of ideas is not an entire novel).
    S

    Hold on. The novel existed before the first REPORT of it. That is, if you consider a school report, or a critical analysis, or even a library index card as REPORT, then the statement can't be criticized. The book, whether in manuscript form or in printed form, existed before anyone could report it.

    There is no contradiction here at all what I can see.
    So, what exactly did not exist - in it's entirety - prior to the first report of it?
    — creativesoul

    That what they will measure, does not exist, until they measure it.
    alcontali

    When they measure it, it exists. THEN they report it. Therefore the thing exists before it is reported.
  • fresco
    549
    The first level of all measurement is 'nominal' i.e. 'identifying and naming a thing' That necessarily involves directed focal interaction of an observer with a selected aspect of what is considered to be 'the world'. That is why physicists call 'things' - 'repetitive events'
  • creativesoul
    6.2k


    Yes. The novel reports the thought, belief, and ideas of Ahab...
  • god must be atheist
    920
    The first level of all measurement is 'nominal' i.e. 'identifying and naming a thing' That necessarily involves directed focal interaction of an observer with a selected aspect of what is considered to be 'the world'. That is why physicists call 'things' - 'repetitive events'fresco

    So... this is a report after the measurement. Check.
  • god must be atheist
    920
    Yes. The novel reports the thought, belief, and ideas of Ahab.creativesoul

    Yes, but isn't Ahab an imaginary person? I think a novel can never report the thoughts and beliefs of an imaginary person... the novel reports how the author describes or makes known the thoughts and beliefs of an imaginary person.
  • creativesoul
    6.2k


    Sloppy writing on my part... I meant Melville's...

    Imaginary people do not have thought/belief.
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