• Gnostic Christian Bishop
    685
    frankfrank

    Let me amend my statement of not finding any objective moral tenets.

    I might have found two but have never really had a full debate on them.

    One of those is subject to a subjective decision leading it to being objective in all the scenarios I can think of while the other seems to be the only pure objective tenet that I can think of that does not need a subjective view, or perhaps better said, the subjective view always leads to showing it is an objective moral tenet in all situation.

    I will put then down after I see what you come up with.

    Regards
    DL
  • frank
    3.1k
    What would you say is an objective moral tenet?Gnostic Christian Bishop

    Moral statements are always taken to be objectively truth apt by people who use them, which just means they aren't considered to be matters of opinion. For instance, if a cop runs a prostitution ring, I would say that's immoral. Particularly, I have in mind the betrayal of society that's involved there. Yes, it hurts my feelings, and I suppose there's a subjective aspect to that, but when I say it's immoral, I specifically do not mean that it's just my opinion that it's bad.
  • Gnostic Christian Bishop
    685
    if a cop runs a prostitution ring, I would say that's immoral.frank

    Is it as immoral if the cop took the ring over to stop the pimp from abusing his girls?

    I knew a prostitute one time who became one to end her abuse at home and to be able to afford to take her younger sister away from her abusive father? Abuse was running at about 40% of all girls ate that time. It is not quite that high today but still unacceptable.

    What is that ring was full of that type of abused prostitute?

    Is it wrong to use those prostitutes and force them into more abusive or lower class circumstances?

    Such questions are subjective for the reasons I just put.

    You might think it evil but I might not without more information due to what I know as compared to what you know.

    As promised. The only two moral tenets I think might be objective and always true are ---

    1. Though shalt not kill when you can cure.
    2. The good or needs of the many outweighs the good or needs of the few.

    That last needs a subjective decision first while # 1 might not.

    Regards
    DL
  • frank
    3.1k
    Is it as immoral if the cop took the ring over to stop the pimp from abusing his girls?Gnostic Christian Bishop

    If you really think the issue is a matter of opinion, then why are you suggesting that I might be wrong? Just honor my opinion and move on.
  • Bartricks
    626
    No, the point is you haven't articulated a coherent problem.
  • Gnostic Christian Bishop
    685
    If you really think the issue is a matter of opinion, then why are you suggesting that I might be wrong?frank

    I didn't.
    I just complicated things for you to show how morals are all subjective.

    Respect and honor have to be earned. You have yet to earn it.

    Regards
    DL
  • Gnostic Christian Bishop
    685
    No, the point is you haven't articulated a coherent problem.Bartricks

    How about faith leading to the idol worship of a genocidal and evil god while thinking him good?

    Regards
    DL
  • Bartricks
    626
    I do not understand what you are getting at. Whether a god exists or not has nothing to do with what belief in such a being might inspire people to do.
  • frank
    3.1k

    Then what was the story about the abused women supposed to do if not appeal to pity and bring me to accept that sometimes it's right for a cop to run a prostitution ring?
  • Gnostic Christian Bishop
    685
    I do not understand what you are getting at.Bartricks

    Do you think that thinking an evil genocidal prick of a god like Yahweh is a good god is a good idea?
    Whether a god exists or not has nothing to do with what belief in such a being might inspire people to do.Bartricks

    I agree.

    The writings of said god is what should be the guide and for a human to think that a genocidal prick is a good god shows poor guidance by Christianity, be their prick of a god be real or not.

    Would you let someone teach your children that genocide is done by good people And good gods?

    Regards
    DL
  • Gnostic Christian Bishop
    685
    Then what was the story about the abused women supposed to do if not appeal to pity and bring me to accept that sometimes it's right for a cop to run a prostitution ring?frank

    I did not want to engage your pity.

    Such a woman would tell you to shove your pity.

    If it is really in you, then pay her for her time so she can keep protecting her younger sister and buy her pimp a drink for helping protect prostitutes who likely do not want to be in that profession.

    Regards
    DL
  • frank
    3.1k
    I'm not opposed to prostitution. I'm opposed to cops deciding for themselves which laws to enforce. If you dont agree, I think you're wrong.

    That's what we mean by morality: that it's not a matter of opinion.
  • Gnostic Christian Bishop
    685
    frankfrank

    Most moral tenets are subjective and it is moral for a sister to try to save her sister from abuse.

    If you don't agree, I think you're wrong.

    If not opinion then name a few objective moral tenets. You just naming them objective without examples is not the way to show why you hold your poor opinion.

    Regards
    DL
  • frank
    3.1k
    So according to you:


    It is moral for a sister to try to save her sister from abuse.

    If you don't agree, I think you're wrong.
    Gnostic Christian Bishop

    And yet you maintain that all moral statements are merely subjectively true. You appear to be contradicting yourself.
  • Gnostic Christian Bishop
    685
    And yet you maintain that all moral statements are merely subjectively true. You appear to be contradicting yourself.frank

    Never, unless the question or scenario changes.

    We are talking of a specific case. My subjective moral decision is that that girl is doing the right thing.

    You are still not showing any of the objective moral tenets you say exist.

    Regards
    DL
  • frank
    3.1k
    And yet you maintain that all moral statements are merely subjectively true. You appear to be contradicting yourself.
    — frank

    Never, unless the question or scenario changes.
    Gnostic Christian Bishop

    So you don't maintain that moral statements are subjectively true?

    Is English not your first language? You aren't making sense.
  • Gnostic Christian Bishop
    685
    So you don't maintain that moral statements are subjectively true?frank

    I do until I see what you would call an objective moral tenet.

    You have not given me anything to analyse of opine on, as requested.

    Regards
    DL
  • frank
    3.1k
    I do until I see what you would call an objective moral tenet.Gnostic Christian Bishop

    You provided a statement that you believe is objectively true. Let me explain:

    Suppose you and I are standing around a table that has a coffee cup on it. The question we'll ponder is whether the handle is on the left side or the right side of the cup.

    Can you see how this question only has subjectively true answers? If it's on the left for me, I wouldn't demand that it also be on the left for you. It very well may be on your right.

    Now we ponder the question: Is the cup made of copper? This question only has objectively true answers. By this, we mean that if it's a true statement that it's made of copper, this statement should be true for everyone. So if I see that it's made of copper, I expect you to agree with that.

    So:

    Subjectively true statements = I don't expect you to agree with me, but you might.

    Objectively true statements = I expect you to agree with me

    So when you stated that you believe it's moral for the woman to help her sister, and that if I disagree with you, I'm wrong: you were offering up a moral statement that you believe to be objectively true.

    That's how it works.
  • Gnostic Christian Bishop
    685
    frankfrank

    I am ot bad at thinking analogically but cups have no morals.

    Regards
    DL
  • frank
    3.1k
    I am ot bad at thinking analogically but cups have no morals.Gnostic Christian Bishop

    I agree. That's why I deprive them of their coffee every chance I get.
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