• StreetlightX
    4.3k
    This discussion was created with comments split from We are responsible ONLY for what we do NOT control
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    Is Judith Butler "Ms." Butler? I think that you should refer to em as Mx. Butler. Granted, I am just using the Spivak pronouns as I don't know what Judith Butler prefers.thewonder

    I actually don't care what she prefers unless I'm given something I consider a good reason to care. ;-)
  • thewonder
    412

    Au contraire, mon ami! Judith Butler is the author of Gender Trobule, and I would bet that ey would want for you to refer to em by eir chosen pronouns.
  • S
    11.8k
    Au contraire, mon ami! Judith Butler is the author of Gender Trobule, and I would bet that ey would want for you to refer to em by eir chosen pronouns.thewonder

    I don't care either. I don't just adopt silly linguistic inventions on demand.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    Judith Butler is the author of Gender Trobule, and I would bet that ey would want for you to refer to em by eir chosen pronouns.thewonder

    Sure, but that doesn't impact whether I care. I might call her Lurch, even.

    You can't always get what you want.
  • thewonder
    412

    Well, if you want to be really lazy, you can just substitute "they" or "them" for nearly everything. That's what the queer community around here does.


    I'm just saying that I think that you should care because Gender Trouble is like the seminal work on contemporary Queer Theory.
  • Noah Te Stroete
    2.1k


    I agree with you. If Terrapin is a man by gender than I will call him “he”. If Judith is gender fluid then I will call them “they” if that’s what they prefer.
  • thewonder
    412

    Thanks Noah Te Stroete. My guess would be that Judith Butler identifies as she/gender-neutral pronoun, and, so, @Terrapin Station might get away with it, but were they present, I feel like ey might correct him.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    I'm just saying that I think that you should care because Gender Trouble is like the seminal work on contemporary Queer Theory.thewonder

    I have no problem with however anyone wants to be, whatever consensual choices they want to make etc.--I'm very much a minarchist, laissez-faire libertarian in that sense, but I don't agree with a lot of the sort of LitCritty humanities theorizing that goes on. I think a lot of it is garbage philosophically. Of course, I feel that way about a lot of philosophy in general, especially LitCritty, continental, PoMo, etc. stuff. (But not just that--I think there's a lot of garbage analytic philosophy, too).
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    I feel like ey might correct him.thewonder

    Not for long, because they'd not enjoy the debate they'd get into about it.
  • thewonder
    412

    If no one practices getting the pronouns correct then they will never become easy to use colloquially. Judith Butler may be a lesbian, but ey is not a lesbian who identifies as having a binary gender. You are correct that this is not terribly relevent, and, so, Professor Butler is probably fine.
  • thewonder
    412

    It's a little bit nitpicky and a little too difficult to get a decent handle on, but you really should use the chosen pronouns. It's sort of like how in the 50s, when you didn't know the gender of the subject of a sentence you would just have to assume that he or she was male. It took kind of a while to alter the language so that people would say "he or she" etc. The gender-neutral pronouns are kind of the same way. If the person does not identify as being male or female, then you should refer to em by eir chosen pronouns.

    Alas, though, this is off-topic.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    It's a little bit nitpicky and a little too difficult to get a decent handle on, but you really should use the chosen pronouns. It's sort of like how in the 50s, when you didn't know the gender of the subject of a sentence you would just have to assume that he or she was male. It took kind of a while to alter the language so that people would say "he or she" etc. The gender-neutral pronouns are kind of the same way. If the person does not identify as being male or female, then you should refer to em by eir chosen pronouns.thewonder

    You should do this because?
  • S
    11.8k
    Well, if you want to be really lazy, you can just substitute "they" or "them" for nearly everything. That's what the queer community around here does.thewonder

    No thanks. I find that ridiculous. I'll just talk normally.
  • thewonder
    412

    Because ey don't identify as being male or female, and, so, it is not correct to subjectify them as either. By doing so, you have referred to another subject who is not present.

    I will also begin demanding that you refer to me by the pronoun "xe" if you don't just decide to agree with me.
  • S
    11.8k
    I will also begin demanding that you refer to me by the pronoun "xe" if you don't just decide to agree with me.thewonder

    Wait, are you serious? Because it sounds almost trollish, but then I remind myself that some people out there genuinely would say such things. That's very much part of the Looney Left, and I would disassociate myself with that group.
  • thewonder
    412

    But, it's not normal, though.

    It used to be that when you were discussing something, let's say a person driving a car, that you would assume that the gender of the person, if you didn't know it, was male.

    So, "A person was driving a car. He turned left."

    This was considered to be grammatically correct, but it's totally absurd. You don't know that the gender of the person driving the car is male. After a long debate with a lot of Feminists, grammarians changed this.

    It became: "A person was driving a car. He or she turned left."

    This is better, but it still assumes that the person driving the car identifies as being either male or female. It doesn't take too much of a stretch of the imagination to suggest that there is a real need for a gender neutral pronoun.

    It should be: "A person was driving a car. Ey(or some other gender neutral pronoun) turned left."

    You don't know the gender of the person driving the car, and, so, can not assume that ey are either male or female.
  • thewonder
    412

    It all sounds a bit funny, but through common usage it will cease to be so strange.
  • S
    11.8k
    But, it's not normal, though.thewonder

    Saying such a thing makes me think that you're delusional or possibly a lawyer. What you demand is obviously not normal, generally speaking. It's a peculiar and recent phenomenon which most people not only reject, but find ridiculous. But I can't be bothered to read whatever small print follows the above where you presumably try to qualify that statement.
  • thewonder
    412

    I am not a lawyer, but I do see how someone could get that impression. I've thought about studying Law.

    Just read it. It's only like 8 sentences.
  • S
    11.8k
    It all sounds a bit funny, but through common usage it will cease to be so strange.thewonder

    Yes, if that happens, then it will cease to be an issue for me. But I don't expect that that'll happen any time soon, and if you believe otherwise, then I think that you're just thinking wishfully. Obviously, before that can happen, a vast number of people would have to go along with the silliness, and not enough people are going to do that.
  • Noah Te Stroete
    2.1k
    Perhaps the problem is in the sheer rarity of such people? If they had a large army, and if everyone had one as a neighbor, then things might be different. I don’t know.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    In all of this migrating comments nonsense, this didn't get transferred:

    Because ey don't identify as being male or female, and, so, it is not correct to subjectify them as either. By doing so, you have referred to another subject who is not present.

    I will also begin demanding that you refer to me by the pronoun "xe" if you don't just decide to agree with
    thewonder

    Holy moley--"correct" again.

    There is no "correct" when it comes to this stuff.

    I demand that you let me use language however I want to. I don't identify as a conformist to what others want.
  • Noah Te Stroete
    2.1k
    I demand that you let me use language however I want to. I don't identify as a conformist to what others want.Terrapin Station

    But you do conform more than you don’t. However, you do conform less than most around here, so I guess that’s the problem with communicating with you.
  • thewonder
    412

    Eh, I'm hopeful. It's become quite common to use the colloquial "they". That's fine by me in spite of that it actually is grammatically incorrect. I don't mind conceptualizing gender as a multiplicity, though.
    It is kind of a particular issue that only ever gets brought up in left-wing academic circles. In so far that such a community is capable of effecting any real change, things will change. You can almost be a Communist without nearly everyone assuming that you're either a Stalinist totalitarian or a backstabbing traitor now. So, they effect some sort of change. Who's to say whether or not it's really for the greater good?

    Your demands disregard the demands of others. Just use "they" or "them". That's what mostly everyone who cares about these things does from what I can tell.
  • S
    11.8k
    Perhaps the problem is in the sheer rarity of such people? If they had a large army, and if everyone had one as a neighbor, then things might be different. I don’t know.Noah Te Stroete

    Why would it be a problem that such people are rare, or that things are the way that they are? Things are the way that they are because it's convenient, makes sense, and because we value freedom of speech. I don't think that it would solve any problem, generally speaking, if a vast number of people suddenly popped up and demanded the rest of us adopt their weird ways of speaking. It would of course suit those with that agenda, but I don't recognise it as a real problem to begin with. It might well be a problem for them, but it's not my problem. But it's a problem if some arrogant and self-obsessed individual starts demanding I call them this or that in some peculiar language. To that, I would probably tell them to do one.
  • Noah Te Stroete
    2.1k
    Do you hang out with any feminists? Do you use “he” instead of “one” or “he or she”?
  • S
    11.8k
    Do you hang out with any feminists? Do you use “he” instead of “one” or “he or she”?Noah Te Stroete

    I use whatever feels right. I wouldn't use "one", as that would be silly. But I wouldn't deliberately refer to a transgender female as a he, for example. I just ain't saying all of the dumb shit, like "xe" or "ey" or whatever.
  • Noah Te Stroete
    2.1k
    To that, I would probably tell them to do one.S

    No problem. It’s not my axe to grind.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    Your demands disregard the demands of others.thewonder

    Their demands disregard mine.

    Who gets preference and why?
  • PoeticUniverse
    781
    If no one practices getting the pronouns correct then they will never become easy to use colloquially.thewonder

    When gender is unknown,
    Some pronouns can’t be said,
    So, for he or she, use “e”,

    As for him or her, it’s “erm”,
    And for his or hers, use “eir”.

    As for a singular you, that is it;
    For the plural, use “you-all”.
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