• Evil
    199
    Good news: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-50501747

    Fuck chinese government expansionism attempts.
  • ovdtogt
    669
    Chinese regime is the most insidious expression of contemporary fascism.
  • ssu
    1.7k
    Not only that.

    China is also a great example that a fascist system can adapt to the present and thrive economically. At least for a while, that is. On the long run I'm not so sure: Government lead capitalism can go only so far and once it has caught up and it ought to be truly innovative, then the problems start. Freedom isn't something you just can confine to the economy and technical innovation and otherwise limit.
  • ovdtogt
    669
    Fascism is ultimately about power and wealth. The ones in power will never stop accumulating power and wealth until the gross of the population is poor and powerless and revolts. The French and the Russian revolution will come to China eventually claiming many millions of lives.
  • ssu
    1.7k
    Yet there's one extremely important difference with fascism and let's say a country like the US, which you could argue to be a liberal plutocracy (with the classic definition of liberalism used here). Now it can be that in both cases the actual leaders of the country can indeed be very rich. But it's the way how the state operates that makes the difference.

    In a liberal democracy, a group of extremely rich people that do have much power simply doesn't make at a unified leadership that fascism has, which typically has a leader (dictator) and/or a small cabal that share a unified political agenda and lead the country. In the US, in comparison of China, you have billionaires like Koch brothers and George Soros, Peter Thiel, Marc Zuckerberg and Elon Musk etc. which have quite different agendas and political views. This means that this group simply doesn't decide on a coherent single plan on what to do with the US. In a fascist state it's all about the great plans. Just as we see in China.

    Fascist governments simply operate like this. They can be smart at what to do and where to invest, but they simply cannot imagine some new industry that nobody has seen yet. Hence it's the government centralization and the oppressive ideology of fascism that are the structural problems.

    It's rather difficult to think that in a fascist state something like the PC revolution or the social media would appear. The commercial use of the internet or the technological revolutions in oil production that have made the US again a large oil producer didn't happen because of a government plan (even if especially the internet does have roots in military applications). Then when we go to what kind of effect the limitation of freedom has on the people and many problems emerge.
  • ovdtogt
    669
    I don't see fascism (the accumulation of wealth, property) at one extreme and communism (all property is publicly owned) as a black or white issue. It is in these extremes that society breaks down.
    Society functions best when it is able to operate in the grey area (Liberal Democracy's). But these forces are present in society. It is when one or the other starts to become more dominant that we get ourselves in trouble. As with everything one has to find the balance between the duality of things.
  • ssu
    1.7k
    Coming back to Hong Kong, we should remember that for the Chinese Communist Party the crackdown on Tianamen Square in 1989 was success story: it stopped political turmoil and after it China has seen economic growth on a scale that hasn't been seen historically. They can look back and say that was the correct thing to do. They will see these protests a threat that they have successfully countered once before. And they have already taken their time, so they don't seem to be desperate.
  • Evil
    199
    you seem to framing china as some sort of unstoppable force. The truth is they have many internal problems
  • Benkei
    2.2k
    I spoke to someone who was born in Hong Kong but lived in the Netherlands since she was 9. She thinks where Hong Kong was still important to China in 1997 nowadays it simply isn't anymore. Her guess is the whole financial industry is going to move in the near future to Shenzhen.
  • Evil
    199
    shenzhen is a fucking ghost town comprised of shitely-made crumbling buildings
  • StreetlightX
    4.4k
    Among my favorite bits:

    "Some notable names ran in the elections, including pro-Beijing lawmaker Junius Ho, one of the most controversial politicians in the city, who suffered a shock defeat."
  • Benkei
    2.2k
    Does it really matter though in light of China's clear disdain for democracy? I'd be surprised to see a change in policy because of the outcome of these elections. But here's hoping I'm totally wrong about that. :cheer:
  • StreetlightX
    4.4k
    It's worth celebrating what small victories are achieved. And frankly, just seeing Ho - a walking, breathing piece of human excrement - lose his seat is worth basking in for whatever moment of pleasure it gives. In any case it totally deprives Lam and her cabinet of their go-to 'silent majority' excuse when talking of the protestors.
  • Benkei
    2.2k
    So at least Trump just signed two laws that are more or less supportive of the demonstrators in Hong Kong. EU, I'm looking at you...
  • ssu
    1.7k
    you seem to framing china as some sort of unstoppable force. The truth is they have many internal problemsEvil
    I've always stated that they have huge problems starting from the structural problems of a totalitarian system. Fascism is an inherently weak and frail system: it views it's own members as potential enemies. It basically has to have an enemy, a threat to justify it's limitations on freedom. I wouldn't describe the present system as an unstoppable force, what it is incapable of doing is reinventing itself and renovating an otherwise bankrupt political system.
  • ssu
    1.7k
    Good move from Trump.

    EU likely won't do a thing.

    Perhaps they (the EU) will go with classic Finnish response line give earlier on any international incident: "We urge all participants to show restraint and stride to a peaceful solution on this matter." :wink:

    Something on those lines appears to be the EU way:

    The EU has consistently called for a de-escalation of violence and a return to dialogue, and on Monday it responded to the siege at Hong Kong Polytechnic University by saying police use of force should be “strictly proportionate” and urging all sides to exercise restraint.
  • Benkei
    2.2k
    Something on those lines appears to be the EU way:

    The EU has consistently called for a de-escalation of violence and a return to dialogue, and on Monday it responded to the siege at Hong Kong Polytechnic University by saying police use of force should be “strictly proportionate” and urging all sides to exercise restraint.
    ssu

    :vomit:
  • ArguingWAristotleTiff
    3.7k
    Trump just signed two laws that are more or less supportive of the demonstrators in Hong KongBenkei
    Americans will always try to stand with people seeking liberty. :strong:
  • Benkei
    2.2k
    Except when they don't. operation condor

    It's a case-by-case thing. In this case I think the US administration and legislation have the moral high ground. In my opinion they usually don't so that makes it remarkable.
  • ArguingWAristotleTiff
    3.7k
    It's a case-by-case thing. In this case I think the US administration and legislation have the moral high ground. In my opinion they usually don't so that makes it remarkable.Benkei

    I agree it is a case-by-case thing when we take the time to understand before intervening.
    Unfortunately multiple administrations, on occasion, have acted before thinking all factors through. It is akin to "Ready, Fire then Aim" it's not a good idea but we have done it before in intervening around the world.
    In the case of Hong Kong, I believe we as the USA, need to make our government's alliance with the people of Hong Kong known. And known boldly.
    I do not wish for any other USA government invovment with the protesters or by extension with China but no one knows where this uprising will lead or how to get there. But we are trying to support them. For the love of God they have been signing our national anthem AND might I say THEY know the words better than the average US citizen.
    Watching the RT live, these protesters are young Warriors and very smart about their strategy. I try to imagine such an uprising here in the USA and I wonder will it be citizens against our government or citizens against citizens. The climate in the country is so divided right now that I do wonder if it would evolve into a civil war.
  • frank
    3.8k
    A friend visited Africa with her son. She said the Chinese make propaganda ads claiming to employ Africans, but their labor is actually convicts.

    Also, Obama's father was from a lower class tribe. If Obama had been born in Africa, he couldn't have become a political leader.
  • ssu
    1.7k
    They are very excited of the idea of created an AI enforced police state.

    Computers and algorithms make it possible. In the old days you had to have an army of secret police members to listen to the phone calls, read the letters and go through all the surveillance data. Now it can be done with AI.
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