leo
249

Ahhh...practicing to be a psychologist by doing cyber-analysis. — Frank Apisa


Actually for now I'm guessing that you have some issues related to the concept of believing, that's not meant to be an attack that's an hypothesis as to why you react the way you do, and if you consider it seriously and do some introspection that might help you. But if you keep reacting like that this hypothesis might turn into a belief.

I do not do "believing." — Frank Apisa

I DO NOT DO BELIEVING. — Frank Apisa

So...I do not do believing. — Frank Apisa

That is why I say I do not do "believing"...because I don't. — Frank Apisa

I do not do "believing." — Frank Apisa

I do not do believing. — Frank Apisa

But I do not do "believing." — Frank Apisa

...I do not do believing. — Frank Apisa

But I do not do "believing." — Frank Apisa

I am not doing "believing." — Frank Apisa

Do you have a problem with that? — Frank Apisa

What is your fucking problem? — Frank Apisa


There are so many things to focus on, yet you seem most focused on making other people know and accept that you "do not do believing". I have seen you do that on at least one other thread. When people disagree with you, you respond with passive-aggressiveness, or you attack them. It doesn't take a psychologist to notice that you fixate on it and you react very strongly to it. When people stop replying to you you consider you have them convinced, but really you're just driving them away.

When a person says, "I believe there is a god"...all they are doing is saying, "It is my blind guess that there is at least one god in the REALITY"...but they are pretending they are saying something else. They are disguising the fact that they are making a blind guess by calling it a "belief." — Frank Apisa


It is not "all they are doing", because they also think and act as if this god exists, sometimes they feel him, they expect to meet him at some point, all that they wouldn't do if they were just blindly guessing.

Did you have help constructing that abomination of a sentence...or did you do it on your own, perhaps while under the influence? — Frank Apisa


In terms that you can understand, YOU DO BELIEVING, even if you don't say it, and even if you don't realize it.

I gave an example, in that example you hold a belief, the way belief is defined, so by the definition of belief you do believing. Now you keep saying that you do not do believing, but that's not in accordance with the definition of belief, because by that definition you do believing. — leo

Leo...you are completely full of shit.

I do not do "believing."

If you are saying that I do guessing...you are correct. I do guessing. If you want to call your guesses (especially the BLIND guesses) beliefs...fine with me. BUT I DO NOT DO THAT.

When I guess...I guess; when I estimate...I estimate; when I suppose...I suppose

If you or anyone else wants to guess or estimate or suppose...and pretend it is something else by calling it a belief...fine with me. But I do not do that.

I do not do "believing."

Not sure what your problem is with that, but it is YOUR problem. Not mine.

If you are not bright enough to understand my point...or if you think you are the arbiter of what I do or do not do...

...that also is YOUR problem.

I DO NOT DO BELIEVING.

I do understanding; guessing; supposing; estimating...and all that kind of stuff that others call "believing."

But I call my guesses, suppositions, and estimations...guesses, suppositions and estimations.

I DO NOT EVER CALL THEM BELIEFS. — Frank Apisa

You might not call them beliefs--that's fine, but you're doing what I name "belief" when you assert things like "I do not do believing." You can call it something else. What we name it doesn't really matter. Many of us just happen to name "that thing" "belief."

Terrapin Station
9.1k

I DO NOT DO BELIEVING.

I do understanding; guessing; supposing; estimating...and all that kind of stuff that others call "believing."

But I call my guesses, suppositions, and estimations...guesses, suppositions and estimations.

I DO NOT EVER CALL THEM BELIEFS. — Frank Apisa


You might not call them beliefs--that's fine, but you're doing what I name "belief" when you assert things like "I do not do believing." You can call it something else. What we name it doesn't really matter. Many of us just happen to name "that thing" "belief." — Terrapin Station

Fine.

YOU do "believing."

I do not.

As to the immediate question of whether any gods exist or not...

...do you blindly guess there are gods or blindly guess there are no gods?

Me...I do not blindly guess in either direction.

You haven't addressed any of my points, you just keep repeating again and again that you "do not do believing". This type of behavior is precisely that of people who believe strongly in something. You believe strongly that you "do not do believing".

How did you arrive at this conclusion that you "do not do believing"? Look at the dictionary definition of belief, "confidence in something", "acceptance that something is true", do you never do that? When you are confident in something, by definition you believe in that thing. When you accept that something is true, by definition you believe in it. By definition you DO believing. You just don't like to call it believing, maybe because you don't want to see yourself and be seen on the same level as the people who believe in a god.

So ok you do not believe there is a god, and you don't believe there is no god, but you believe that you can't know either way, which is a belief by definition: you're confident that you can't know either way, you accept as true that you can't know either way.

However, some people have had experiences that they interpret as being in contact with god, as feeling god, so they're not blindly guessing, they're making an educated guess, they become confident that there is a god, and they choose to believe it, to accept it as true.


And to attempt to bring the topic back on track...

(the story in the OP is just to serve as an example of how people work against inconvenient realities and such). Most people fight for their beliefs not because they understand them or on the merit of the belief's integrity but because they hope to convince themselves that they are right to believe. For most people beliefs have to be ultimate and incontrovertible even when they consider themselves fallible humans. These people, when they believe, they enslave themselves to those beliefs. — BrianW

My view is that beliefs offer a feeling of safety, they are something we hang onto in the chaos and unpredictability of existence. There are some beliefs we are willing to give away easily, and others that we want to stick to no matter what because without them we are lost. And when we believe in something strongly we aren't able to see it as a belief, we see it as reality, as truth.

There is a famous quote from the physicist Max Planck that says: "A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.". Many people live and die with their cherished beliefs and no amount of argumentation can make them change these beliefs, while young people who grow up while being influenced by specific beliefs can stick to them easily. It's like when we're young we stick to the system of beliefs that works best for us, and as we grow older and we're so accustomed to it we don't want to give it away.

But philosophy of science also shows how any belief can be made to fit with observations, with the scientific evidence, with the facts, these are just interpreted differently depending on the belief. We can have countless world views that are consistent with observations, some of them are just simpler than others, some of them allow to make more accurate predictions than others, some of them lead us to destroy ourselves more than others, ..., and when our world views are too different we just talk past each other and don't understand one another.

Fine.

YOU do "believing."

I do not.

As to the immediate question of whether any gods exist or not...

...do you blindly guess there are gods or blindly guess there are no gods?

Me...I do not blindly guess in either direction. — Frank Apisa

You do what-I-and-most-people-call-"believing" but what-you-idiosyncratically-call-something-else.

Re the question of gods, I know there are none, based on lots of different evidence.

leo
250
↪Frank Apisa


You haven't addressed any of my points, you just keep repeating again and again that you "do not do believing". This type of behavior is precisely that of people who believe strongly in something. You believe strongly that you "do not do believing".

How did you arrive at this conclusion that you "do not do believing"? Look at the dictionary definition of belief, "confidence in something", "acceptance that something is true", do you never do that? When you are confident in something, by definition you believe in that thing. When you accept that something is true, by definition you believe in it. By definition you DO believing. You just don't like to call it believing, maybe because you don't want to see yourself and be seen on the same level as the people who believe in a god.

So ok you do not believe there is a god, and you don't believe there is no god, but you believe that you can't know either way, which is a belief by definition: you're confident that you can't know either way, you accept as true that you can't know either way.

However, some people have had experiences that they interpret as being in contact with god, as feeling god, so they're not blindly guessing, they're making an educated guess, they become confident that there is a god, and they choose to believe it, to accept it as true. — leo

I have explained my position as clearly as possible.

You simply want to insist that I consider my guesses, estimates, opinions, and the like to be "beliefs."

As I said, it is my opinion that you are full of shit.

My opinions...are my opinions. They are not my "beliefs", mostly because I do not do "believing."

My guesses...are my guesses. They are not my "beliefs", mostly because I do not do "believing."

My estimates...are my estimates. They are not my "beliefs", mostly because I do not do "believing."

Sorry you have so much trouble with that.

Terrapin Station
9.1k

Fine.

YOU do "believing."

I do not.

As to the immediate question of whether any gods exist or not...

...do you blindly guess there are gods or blindly guess there are no gods?

Me...I do not blindly guess in either direction. — Frank Apisa


You do what-I-and-most-people-call-"believing" but what-you-idiosyncratically-call-something-else.

Re the question of gods, I know there are none, based on lots of different evidence. — Terrapin Station

So you think it is idiosyncratic of me to call my blind guesses...blind guesses?

Really?

And you think it idiosyncratic for me to call my opinion, estimates, and suppositions...opinions, estimates, and suppositions...rather than calling them my "beliefs?"

Wow.

Get the hell off it...both you guys.

Grok what I am saying ...or stay under your rock.

They are not my "beliefs", mostly because I do not do "believing." — Frank Apisa

Then what word (label) do you use to describe the things you think you know?

Pattern-chaser
1.1k

They are not my "beliefs", mostly because I do not do "believing." — Frank Apisa


Then what word (label) do you use to describe the things you think you know? — Pattern-chaser

I would not use "a word" to describe the things I think I know, PC. I would say, "I think I know...x."

Pattern-chaser
1.1k

They are not my "beliefs", mostly because I do not do "believing." — Frank Apisa


Then what word (label) do you use to describe the things you think you know? — Pattern-chaser

Two quick question for you, if I may:

Do you think it is idiosyncratic of me to call my blind guesses...my blind guesses rather than my beliefs?

Do you think calling my blind guesses "beliefs"...is a superior ethical position than calling them "blind guesses."

Personally, I use "believe" to describe anything I think is true. I use "know" to describe things that I'm a lot more sure about. But this seems to be a personal convention, even though (in philosophy forums) there is a clear need for these two terms, or two that offer the same semantic functionality.

Your wish to describe wild guesses as wild guesses is commendable; admirable. But your insistence that you don't do believing leads only to confusion, I think, as it isn't 100% clear what you mean by that. Whoever said communication was easy? :wink:

Pattern-chaser
1.1k
↪Frank Apisa
Personally, I use "believe" to describe anything I think is true. I use "know" to describe things that I'm a lot more sure about. But this seems to be a personal convention, even though (in philosophy forums) there is a clear need for these two terms, or two that offer the same semantic functionality.

Your wish to describe wild guesses as wild guesses is commendable; admirable. But your insistence that you don't do believing leads only to confusion, I think, as it isn't 100% clear what you mean by that. Whoever said communication was easy? :wink: — Pattern-chaser

Point made...and taken.

But I have done my best to describe why I say what I say.

I want to be precise. And even if that is not accepted...why would a substitute seem a better choice than using the word that precisedly describes what I am saying.

If I am making a blind guess about something there is no way for me to know (in any meaningful notion of THAT word)...why on Earth would it be better to describe it as "I believe..." rather than "I blindly guess...?"

We both "know" the answer to that. Right.

If a person says, "I blindly guess that there is a GOD"...that is not going to carry much weight. We would not have as many organizations (national and international) with the intention of "protecting" the right of people to blindly guess about gods.

Same thing for the person who says, "I blindly guess there are no gods." Who really cares if someone blindly guesses there are gods...or there are no gods?

The reaction to someone stressing such a thought would elicit a mild laugh...and something akin to, "Okay...but shuffle and deal. You are holding up the game."

So...rather than reject the notion of "I believe..." as a substitute for "I blindly guess (estimate, suppose, opine)" in conversations about gods/no gods...I have decided not to use "believe" for any of those things even when it comes to things like, "I believe I'll have that left-over chicken for dinner tonight."

Why are these other two guys so upset with that?

I acknowledge that I make guesses...I have opinions...I do estimating. What is the big deal?

So you think it is idiosyncratic of me to call my blind guesses...blind guesses? — Frank Apisa

It's idiosyncratic to not call them beliefs when it's something you'd assert. Whether they're conventionally blind guesses hinges on whether you have any supporting empirical evidence, logical argumentation, etc. for them.

Why are these other two guys so upset with that? — Frank Apisa

Notice that you are the one getting upset.

If a person says, "I blindly guess that there is a GOD"...that is not going to carry much weight. We would not have as many organizations (national and international) with the intention of "protecting" the right of people to blindly guess about gods. — Frank Apisa

Precisely because there is a difference between a belief and a blind guess. Why else would a belief carry more weight than a blind guess?

I mentioned this in a previous post but you didn't address it. When someone believes that there is a god, they think and act as if this god exists, sometimes they feel him, they expect to meet him at some point, all that they wouldn't do if they were just blindly guessing. By the very definition of belief, they are confident of the existence of a god, they accept the existence of a god as true, which is not what they would do if they were blindly guessing.

Do you still use the word "confident", as in you're confident such or such thing is going to happen? Are you sometimes confident of something? If so, you do believing, again by the definition of belief.

For some reason you want to equate "belief" with "blind guess", and again they are not the same thing, but I suppose you're going to evade this point once again and reply for the 25th time that you "do not do believing".

Terrapin Station
9.1k

So you think it is idiosyncratic of me to call my blind guesses...blind guesses? — Frank Apisa


It's idiosyncratic to not call them beliefs when it's something you'd assert. Whether they're conventionally blind guesses hinges on whether you have any supporting empirical evidence, logical argumentation, etc. for them.
31 minutes ago
Reply
Options — Terrapin Station

So...if I know them to be blind guesses...you think it to be idiosyncratic for me to call them blind guesses rather than to use "believe????????????????????????????"

leo
251

Why are these other two guys so upset with that? — Frank Apisa


Notice that you are the one getting upset. — leo

That condescending bullshit did cause me to react rather strongly.

Good for me.

But you and the other guy are the ones telling me that I should call my guesses "beliefs" for no good reason.

If a person says, "I blindly guess that there is a GOD"...that is not going to carry much weight. We would not have as many organizations (national and international) with the intention of "protecting" the right of people to blindly guess about gods. — Frank Apisa


Precisely because there is a difference between a belief and a blind guess. Why else would a belief carry more weight than a blind guess? — Leo

On the question of whether there are any gods or not...any "belief" expressed is NOTHING but a blind guess.

If you want to kid yourself into thinking differently...fine with me. I love a joke.

I mentioned this in a previous post but you didn't address it. When someone believes that there is a god, they think and act as if this god exists, sometimes they feel him, they expect to meet him at some point, all that they wouldn't do if they were just blindly guessing. By the very definition of belief, they are confident of the existence of a god, they accept the existence of a god as true, which is not what they would do if they were blindly guessing. — Leo

Sure they would. And do.

Because that is all they are doing...blindly guessing there is a god.

Do you still use the word "confident", as in you're confident such or such thing is going to happen? Are you sometimes confident of something? If so, you do believing, again by the definition of belief. — Leo

I do use "confident" the way you are suggesting, but I know there is a bit of bullshit involved. Bottom line, I only use it in situations where who cares. I am confident the GIANTS made the right moves; I am confident that my short game will come around. That kind of thing.

]quote]For some reason you want to equate "belief" with "blind guess", and again they are not the same thing, but I suppose you're going to evade this point once again and reply for the 25th time that you "do not do believing".[/quote]

They are the same thing when dealing with fundamental questions about the true nature of the REALITY of existence...like, "Are there any gods or not?"

They are nothing but blind guesses.

Guys like you call them "beliefs" in order to pretend they are something more.

I'll give you this: You are doing a good job of kidding yourself.

I think we share similar lines of thought with respect to what belief is. However, I have this question I've wanted to ask someone, so here goes - often we try to reconcile knowledge in such a way that it matches that of others, for the most part, about a particular object/subject. So, is belief something that we should also attempt to reconcile? Or, is subjectivity one of the main aspects of belief and therefore they must remain isolated from those of others regardless of any commonalities.

But you and the other guy are the ones telling me that I should call my guesses "beliefs" for no good reason. — Frank Apisa

You can call your guesses guesses, but you're mistaking yourself if you 'believe' that you have no beliefs. Again, look at the dictionary definition of belief.

On the question of whether there are any gods or not...any "belief" expressed is NOTHING but a blind guess. — Frank Apisa

This is false. One who has felt god has their belief based in part on subjective evidence, so it is not a blind guess.

Because that is all they are doing...blindly guessing there is a god. — Frank Apisa

Their belief may be based on a blind guess or on their education or on what they want or on their past experiences, but you can't reduce all they are doing to "blindly guessing", there is much more to it than that. People don't dedicate their life to a blind guess. Their belief shapes their whole life and how they see the world, they live by their belief every passing moment, you can't reduce it to a blind guess like blindly guessing the result of the next football game.

I do use "confident" the way you are suggesting, but I know there is a bit of bullshit involved. Bottom line, I only use it in situations where who cares. I am confident the GIANTS made the right moves; I am confident that my short game will come around. That kind of thing. — Frank Apisa

It is customary to use the word belief in these cases too, "I believe they made the right move", "I believe it will come around". And you're not only using it in situations where it is inconsequential. Say you're crossing the road and you see a car racing towards you, you may be confident that if you run forward you will avoid it, but if you're wrong you die.

Or say you lived at a time where it was commonly accepted that the Sun revolved around the Earth, you would see the Sun move across the sky and you would be confident that the Sun revolves around the Earth, you would believe that, by the definition of belief. Today you may accept as true that the Earth revolves around the Sun, which is by definition a belief.

So if you are confident about things, or you accept things as true, you do believing, by the definition of belief.

They are the same thing when dealing with fundamental questions about the true nature of the REALITY of existence...like, "Are there any gods or not?"

They are nothing but blind guesses. — Frank Apisa

People who have felt god do not base their belief in a god on a blind guess.

If you consider that the people who feel god blindly guess that the feeling they experience is that of god, then if we go down that rabbit hole it is a blind guess that other people have a consciousness, it is a blind guess that there is an external world that exists independently of you, so why do you focus on people who believe in a god or not?

Besides I have no problem with people basing their belief on a blind guess, or on whatever, the problem is when they try to force their belief onto others.

:smile:
I see Frank is still trying to rationalise his escape from the Church ministry by brandishing his simplistic shield emblazoned with the word 'Guess' at all antagonists,. It is indeed a pity that, after all these years,he does not seem familiar with the plethora of epistemological literature available.

fresco.

I think we share similar lines of thought with respect to what belief is. However, I have this question I've wanted to ask someone, so here goes - often we try to reconcile knowledge in such a way that it matches that of others, for the most part, about a particular object/subject. So, is belief something that we should also attempt to reconcile? Or, is subjectivity one of the main aspects of belief and therefore they must remain isolated from those of others regardless of any commonalities. — BrianW

I think that knowledge is not independent of belief. Knowledge about a particular object/subject will be formulated in a framework that depends on the beliefs of the person formulating that knowledge. So for instance, in one framework the Sun can be described as a giant ball of incandescent plasma heated by the nuclear fusion in its core that has such and such properties, while in another framework the Sun can be described as a God with such and such characteristics.

And then when we try to reconcile knowledge with that of others, isn't it that we're fundamentally already attempting to reconcile beliefs?

leo
253

But you and the other guy are the ones telling me that I should call my guesses "beliefs" for no good reason. — Frank Apisa


You can call your guesses guesses, but you're mistaking yourself if you 'believe' that you have no beliefs. Again, look at the dictionary definition of belief. — leo

I KNOW what the dictionary definition of "belief" is. But I do not do "believing"...because I do not use the word to disguise a guess, estimate, opinion, or supposition.

On the question of whether there are any gods or not...any "belief" expressed is NOTHING but a blind guess. — Frank Apisa


This is false. One who has felt god has their belief based in part on subjective evidence, so it is not a blind guess. — Leo

Bullshit. Any assertion that "there is a god" or "there are no gods" is nothing but a blind guess. It might as well be based on a coin toss...as the "subjective evidence" you pretend exists.

Because that is all they are doing...blindly guessing there is a god. — Frank Apisa


Their belief may be based on a blind guess or on their education or on what they want or on their past experiences, but you can't reduce all they are doing to "blindly guessing", there is much more to it than that. People don't dedicate their life to a blind guess. Their belief shapes their whole life and how they see the world, they live by their belief every passing moment, you can't reduce it to a blind guess like blindly guessing the result of the next football game. — Leo

There is nothing wrong with making blind guesses. I have made them...just as almost everyone has.

But make no mistake about it...guesses about whether there are gods or not...ARE blind guesses.

Yeah, it is a tough one to deal with for people like you. But is something you ought to do anyway.

I do use "confident" the way you are suggesting, but I know there is a bit of bullshit involved. Bottom line, I only use it in situations where who cares. I am confident the GIANTS made the right moves; I am confident that my short game will come around. That kind of thing. — Frank Apisa


It is customary to use the word belief in these cases too, "I believe they made the right move", "I believe it will come around". And you're not only using it in situations where it is inconsequential. Say you're crossing the road and you see a car racing towards you, you may be confident that if you run forward you will avoid it, but if you're wrong you die. — Leo

It may be customary...BUT I DO NOT DO IT. I DO NOT DO BELIEVING.

Or say you lived at a time where it was commonly accepted that the Sun revolved around the Earth, you would see the Sun move across the sky and you would be confident that the Sun revolves around the Earth, you would believe that, by the definition of belief. Today you may accept as true that the Earth revolves around the Sun, which is by definition a belief. — Leo

I would "accept it as so." Yes...and today there are things I "accept as so." BUT I REFUSE TO USE THE WORD "BELIEVE" TO DISGUISE WHAT I AM DOING. I USE "I ACCEPT IT AS SO."

That is because I do not do "believing."

So if you are confident about things, or you accept things as true, you do believing, by the definition of belief. — Leo

Now you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. You understand that I am saying that I do not use the word "believe" to mask the true nature of what I am doing. I am either guessing, supposing, opinion, suggesting, accepting...or any of those other things.

I HAVE NEVER SUGGESTED IN ANY WAY THAT I DO NOT DO THOSE THINGS. I have acknowledged that I do all those things.

But I insist that I do not disguise what I am doing by saying, "I believe..."

I have explained why I consider this important.

You want to be stone-headed and insist I cannot do that...when it is obvious that I can and do.

So...you are turning this thread into a discussion of me...rather than its intention...

...which is, "We Don't Want To Believe - Because, If We Believe, Then..."

Read the OP...and take a look how this one poster uses the word "believe" in what he has to say.

The use of the word is what makes the issue nonsense. Each time he could have used "do you guess or suppose"...and everything could have been clearer.

They are the same thing when dealing with fundamental questions about the true nature of the REALITY of existence...like, "Are there any gods or not?"

They are nothing but blind guesses. — Frank Apisa


People who have felt god do not base their belief in a god on a blind guess. — Go

Bullshit.

If you consider that the people who feel god blindly guess that the feeling they experience is that of god, then if we go down that rabbit hole it is a blind guess that other people have a consciousness, it is a blind guess that there is an external world that exists independently of you, so why do you focus on people who believe in a god or not?

Besides I have no problem with people basing their belief on a blind guess, or on whatever, the problem is when they try to force their belief onto others.

I could not care less about blind guesses.

When it comes to whether gods exist or not...I prefer not to make them.

I could not care less about whether you or anyone else does.

But I am going to call attention to the fact that it is more ethical to call blind guesses...blind guesses than to call them "beliefs."

fresco
3
:smile:
I see Frank is still trying to rationalise his escape from the Church ministry by brandishing his simplistic shield emblazoned with the word 'Guess' at all antagonists,. It is indeed a pity that, after all these years,he does not seem familiar with the plethora of epistemological literature available.

fresco. — fresco

Still up to this kind of crap, Fresco!

Okay. I guess I easily still get under your skin.

Good to see ya.

leo
254

I think we share similar lines of thought with respect to what belief is. However, I have this question I've wanted to ask someone, so here goes - often we try to reconcile knowledge in such a way that it matches that of others, for the most part, about a particular object/subject. So, is belief something that we should also attempt to reconcile? Or, is subjectivity one of the main aspects of belief and therefore they must remain isolated from those of others regardless of any commonalities. — BrianW


I think that knowledge is not independent of belief. Knowledge about a particular object/subject will be formulated in a framework that depends on the beliefs of the person formulating that knowledge. So for instance, in one framework the Sun can be described as a giant ball of incandescent plasma heated by the nuclear fusion in its core that has such and such properties, while in another framework the Sun can be described as a God with such and such characteristics.

And then when we try to reconcile knowledge with that of others, isn't it that we're fundamentally already attempting to reconcile beliefs? — leo

No need to "reconcile" "beliefs"...if one stops using the disguise "belief."

The notion that the "truth" of what IS...must be "reconciled" with what creatures like humans think and guess about it...is an absurdity.

It may be customary...BUT I DO NOT DO IT. I DO NOT DO BELIEVING. — Frank Apisa

I would "accept it as so." Yes...and today there are things I "accept as so." BUT I REFUSE TO USE THE WORD "BELIEVE" TO DISGUISE WHAT I AM DOING. I USE "I ACCEPT IT AS SO."

That is because I do not do "believing." — Frank Apisa

So you agree that you do what people do when they say they "believe" something. And you agree that they do believing. So logically, you do believing, you just don't call it that.

Why get so worked up about the word "belief", what is the terrible thing that would happen if you used that word?

Any assertion that "there is a god" or "there are no gods" is nothing but a blind guess. It might as well be based on a coin toss...as the "subjective evidence" you pretend exists. — Frank Apisa

Subjective evidence exists to the people who experience it. A blind person will have no idea what the color blue is like, but surely that doesn't imply you don't see colors. So just because you have not experienced god, doesn't imply others haven't.

I KNOW what the dictionary definition of "belief" is. But I do not do "believing"...because I do not use the word to disguise a guess, estimate, opinion, or supposition. — Frank Apisa

If you know the dictionary definition of "belief", then you know that belief is not identical with a guess, or an estimate, or an opinion, or a supposition. So why do you keep attempting to equate belief with them?

Confidence in something, or the acceptance of something as true, is not a guess, nor an estimate, nor an opinion, nor a supposition.

"We Don't Want To Believe - Because, If We Believe, Then..."

Read the OP...and take a look how this one poster uses the word "believe" in what he has to say.

The use of the word is what makes the issue nonsense. Each time he could have used "do you guess or suppose"...and everything could have been clearer. — Frank Apisa

If you attempt to replace belief in what the OP says with something else, you're changing what the OP says.

The concept of belief is useful, you have the right not to use it, but stop saying there is no need to use it because you believe that it is the same as a guess or a supposition.

You're even contradicting yourself, because if to you "believe" means the same thing as "guess", then it would be as clear to use the word "believe" than to use the word "guess", yet you say that everything would have been clearer if "guess" was used instead of "believe".

If you agree that "believe" and "guess" are not the same, stop saying they are the same. And if you consider that "believe" and "guess" are the same, stop saying that it is clearer to use "guess" rather than "believe".

You have an internal conflict about the word "belief", I'm not being condescending it's just what transpires through your posts, as shown by the self-contradiction above. And I believe that you need to engage in some introspection to find out why that is.

leo
255

It may be customary...BUT I DO NOT DO IT. I DO NOT DO BELIEVING. — Frank Apisa


I would "accept it as so." Yes...and today there are things I "accept as so." BUT I REFUSE TO USE THE WORD "BELIEVE" TO DISGUISE WHAT I AM DOING. I USE "I ACCEPT IT AS SO."

That is because I do not do "believing." — Frank Apisa


So you agree that you do what people do when they say they "believe" something. And you agree that they do believing. So logically, you do believing, you just don't call it that.

Why get so worked up about the word "belief", what is the terrible thing that would happen if you used that word? — leo

I do not do "believing."

I do not use the word "believe" to disguise the fact that I am accepting, or supposing, or guessing. So I do not do "believing."

You seem to be getting worked up over the notion that I will not substitute a word that makes what I am doing seem less clear.

Deal with that.

Any assertion that "there is a god" or "there are no gods" is nothing but a blind guess. It might as well be based on a coin toss...as the "subjective evidence" you pretend exists. — Frank Apisa


Subjective evidence exists to the people who experience it. A blind person will have no idea what the color blue is like, but surely that doesn't imply you don't see colors. So just because you have not experienced god, doesn't imply others haven't. — Leo

Okay...so let's use the opposite...let's use "I believe there are no gods."

Can you acknowledge that "I believe there are no gods" HAS TO BE A BLIND GUESS?

If you can, see if you can extrapolate from that...the notion that "I believe there is a GOD" is a blind guess also.

I KNOW what the dictionary definition of "belief" is. But I do not do "believing"...because I do not use the word to disguise a guess, estimate, opinion, or supposition. — Frank Apisa


If you know the dictionary definition of "belief", then you know that belief is not identical with a guess, or an estimate, or an opinion, or a supposition. So why do you keep attempting to equate belief with them? — Leo

Because when a person says, "I believe there are no gods"...that person IS expressing a blind guess. And so are the ones who say, "I believe there is a GOD."

If you are saying there are people who KNOW there is a god...that can be discussed. We can do it here or elsewhere.

Confidence in something, or the acceptance of something as true, is not a guess, nor an estimate, nor an opinion, nor a supposition. — Leo

Often it is.

"We Don't Want To Believe - Because, If We Believe, Then..."

Read the OP...and take a look how this one poster uses the word "believe" in what he has to say.

The use of the word is what makes the issue nonsense. Each time he could have used "do you guess or suppose"...and everything could have been clearer. — Frank Apisa


If you attempt to replace belief in what the OP says with something else, you're changing what the OP says.

The concept of belief is useful, you have the right not to use it, but stop saying there is no need to use it because you believe that it is the same as a guess or a supposition. — Leo

Don't put words in my mouth.

I have never said anything about "believing" anything...and you know it. That is the point of this discussion.

And...there is no need to use it.

You're even contradicting yourself, because if to you "believe" means the same thing as "guess", then it would be as clear to use the word "believe" than to use the word "guess", yet you say that everything would have been clearer if "guess" was used instead of "believe". — Leo

That doesn't make enough sense to get a response beyond...that doesn't make sense.

If you agree that "believe" and "guess" are not the same, stop saying they are the same. And if you consider that "believe" and "guess" are the same, stop saying that it is clearer to use "guess" rather than "believe". — Leo

You do not get to tell me what I must stop doing.

Secondly, you are distorting what I have been saying.

BOTTOM LINE: I do not do "believing"...and I am getting a kick out of you being so bothered by that. Try to get control.

You have an internal conflict about the word "belief",

"Internal!" You have not been paying attention!

I am telling you that I do not use the word "believe" to disguise the fact that I am blindly guessing...when I am blindly guessing.

Not sure why that bothers you so much...but it has gotten to the point of being entertaining.

I'm not being condescending.. — Leo

Yeah, you really have been condescending. And my guess is you will continue to be.

...it's just what transpires through your posts, as shown by the self-contradiction above. And I believe that you need to engage in some introspection to find out why that is.

Aha...there you go again. As I guessed.

You are a joy to play with...although you ought really to sharpen your game.

LAST THOUGHT: I do not do "believing."

Now why would your attempts at self rationalisation of your choice of to leave the Church get under my skin ?

And as long as others are prepared to play games with you about your ridiculous belief that 'you don't do believing' that's their problem.

Have fun !

So...if I know them to be blind guesses...you think it to be idiosyncratic for me to call them blind guesses rather than to use "believe????????????????????????????" — Frank Apisa

If you're really making blind guesses about something, how about spending some time rationally analyzing the issue at hand, and then examining empirical evidence, logical argumentation, etc. as appropriate?

Terrapin Station
9.1k

So...if I know them to be blind guesses...you think it to be idiosyncratic for me to call them blind guesses rather than to use "believe????????????????????????????" — Frank Apisa


If you're really making blind guesses about something, how about spending some time rationally analyzing the issue at hand, and then examining empirical evidence, logical argumentation, etc. as appropriate? — Terrapin Station

Actually...a good idea.

And that is what I do.

But if the subject is: What is the true nature of the REALITY of existence...and can we exclude gods or must we include gods...

...then all I come up with is: Toss a coin.

It is a blind guess on those things...nothing more valuable than a blind guess.

Do you actually disagree with me on that?

I'm asking as nicely as I can, Terrapin. Do you actually disagree with me on that?

Yes. Obviously I disagree with you on that.

You do not believe that there would be any evidence or logical argumentation or rational facts, etc. that would suggest one answer versus another?

Terrapin Station
9.1k
↪Frank Apisa


Yes. Obviously I disagree with you on that.

You do not believe that there would be any evidence or logical argumentation or rational facts, etc. that would suggest one answer versus another? — Terrapin Station

Well, I definitely do not do any "believing"...so obviously I do not "believe" that there would be any evidence or logical argumentation or rational facts on those things. You are correct that I 'DO NOT" believe those things.

If, however, you are asking if I am of the opinion that there are NO facts which substantively and unambiguously point to "there is at least one god" or "there are no gods"....

...that most assuredly IS my opinion.

Can you name one fact that substantively and unambiguously points to either "there is at least one god" or "there are no gods?"

I cannot even conceive of one that points to "there are no gods"...and the only one I can conceive of for "there is at least one god"...is if the god unambiguously revealed itself. I have seen no unambiguous evidence of that.