• Deleted User
    0
    This is an empirical, logical outline of the current environmental (ecological) situation on Earth. I will not elaborate on any point because the internet (full of insane people) will not comprehend the argument to its fullest extent, but i will give enough so that you comprehend what i mean. Writing in prose is more effective than writing in diagrams, logical deductions, or drawings because people will be able to fill in the subtle logical fill in the blanks where necessary (the whole).

    In the agricultural sector we have:
    Forest removal and management, this reduces CO2 capture and biodiversity, while facilitating wildcrafted organics which are not sustainable, etc.
    Fisheries management is adapting to more sustainability oriented regulations, aquacultures and aquaponics may or may not even be necessary..
    Invasive species are not exactly helpful but perhaps we can find a good use for them at times (probably by accident)
    Animal ethics is not working out in the CAFOs, the chinese experiments, etc.
    Meat consumption (eg China) is just going up, complicating all of this
    Desertification or topsoil erosion is just creating a low soil fertility situation which anybody who knows even a little bit about soil biology knows is not helpful or the right way to do agriculture
    Basically the last point reduces to seeing the high tech, high efficiency, high capital, large scale, chemically based agriculture based on conglomerization (basically monopolies) as not being effective, farmers have lost knowledge about plant breeding etc and instead rely at times on IPR based seed saving techniques etc because the market and current paradigm of agriculture supports that model, subsidies for “cheap food” (in the short term, as is the trend of this whole unsustainable model) do not help
    Greenwashing within the alternative agriculture sector does not help, labeling and certification trends just complicate things providing more choice in an unhelpful and vagueness inducing way, the consumer as an individual feels responsible to use a lower energy washing cycle when they really need to change things from the top down policy wise
    Globalized trade for development standards based on population increase after some seeming decolonization is just making this worse - everybody wants processed food, dams, lots of meat, more urban sprawl, year round non-local produce, etc.

    In the energy sector:
    We find we are reliant on limited fossil fuel technology which only creates more of the problematic emissions and unsustainable supply-chain model
    This feeds into the transportation, industrial, agricultural, etc sectors

    The effects of the above:
    Pollution (eg in the past it would be the creation of a superfund site or the enactment of a bill to clean up waterways or whatever), such as plastic waste, unsustainable trash dumps, effluent waste, soil pollution, and air pollution. These are all public health concerns especially in lower GDP less developed countries where populations live in slums (“environmental justice” concerns)
    We find changing global temperature patterns, ice melt, sea rise, and changing weather patterns, none of which are helpful
    Ecology begins to change, eg bee or mammal extinctions
    There is a struggle to remove ourselves from the neomarxist developmental scheme

    So we should:
    Geoengineer more carbon capture (even from sustainable agriculture) and other things, plan cities better (single stream recycling, water use, greywater use, rainwater collection, urban & vertical farming, etc.), make the energy grid more efficient, research renewable energy more, eliminate toxic waste/clean up, educate on nutrition/population increase (how many kids to have) (because we cant just force policy on them in the modern ideologically secular world), apply regulation *as necessary,* incentivize sustainable solutions on a much larger scale, scale up sustainable agriculture by changing the supply-chain and production model (increasing market share, reducing prices of sustainable food compared to processed food, etc.), mine more sustainably, research things like fracking more before just doing them, minimize oil spills, not install huge neomarxist pipelines for no good reason, etc…

    I welcome debate. Go ahead.
  • Sir2u
    3.2k
    I welcome debate. Go ahead.Nasir Shuja

    Congratulations! You are person number 1,000,000,001 to say all of these things.

    Please explain how any of the ideas you propose would be carried out. Saying it is one thing, doing it is something else.
  • Deleted User
    0
    As far as the last paragraph goes, a lot of it is being done already? Uh, but obviously more needs to be done.
  • Banno
    23.4k
    neomarxist pipelinesNasir Shuja

    What's that?

    I have an image of a pipe full of the oppressed...
  • Banno
    23.4k
    Please explain how any of the ideas you propose would be carried out.Sir2u

    It's a bit rich to insist on a detailed project plan at this stage... a bit like asking for a second engineer's report when the wing has fallen off.
  • Deleted User
    0
    Hah. I think we need to take it as it comes, yea.

    About that pipeline thing, I was referring to some literature I liked quite a bit about the oil and gas situation in the middle East, after conflicts, the installing of pipelines to fuel the bonkers princes and kings and get us cheap resources at the expense of the populace (because of their Uber bonkers ideologies) there. Honestly, the reading was so convincing I've co opted their perspective to call it neo Marxist. I mean I guess they have money but I wouldn't say the situation is devoid of power dynamics in an unethical way.. just me. I wish I could find the book but I read it in undergrad a few years ago so my synopsis is Uber shitty. But you're smart, you'll figure it out
  • Grre
    196
    Unpopular opinion: anti-natalism?
  • Deleted User
    0
    Haha I've actually been hearing that more nowadays.. I mean in what way? How much? Where? How would it come about? Population reduction (in the craaaazy ways I've heard to do it) is obviously a very theoretically beneficial factor, but I wouldn't jump to that before exploring all other options. I'm not going to get behind anything that could lead to any discussion of anything like a eugenics.. I'll vomit
  • Deleted User
    0
    Does anybody know of a more quantitative map based description of the initial post and its endless ensuing details? That it seems is what I'm really looking for if I want to think more solution based, now that I get the basic conceptual structure
  • Sir2u
    3.2k
    It's a bit rich to insist on a detailed project plan at this stage...Banno

    Not really insisting, more like asking if he has any new ideas that are maybe not as well known as those we see in the news papers everyday.
    Basically the post is a summary of what most reasonably informed people know already, but they known for years and very little is being done to fix any of the problems.

    Supermarkets now want to sell/fine you for using plastic bags, but half of the products you buy are wrapped in one use plastic. And the common person does not give a shit about it.
    Not many want to give up their cars and take the bus or the train and it would cause havoc the day even 20% percent of them did actually try.
    There are too many people in the world and they are living longer but no one can stop people from having kids. China tried and look what happened to them.
    There is not enough food to feed all of the people in some places, but tons of food are thrown away everyday in other places.

    Up until now I have heard lots of people saying that something needs to be done, but I have not heard of really feasible plans to do it.

    a bit like asking for a second engineer's report when the wing has fallen off.Banno
    My dad used to say that it was like inquiring about the pumps when the officers mess had water on the floor. The bloody ship is sinking.
  • Janus
    15.5k
    This article, which I think is a fairly accurate analysis of the situation might be of some interest:

    https://paularbair.wordpress.com/2019/03/21/a-modest-suggestion-for-the-worlds-climate-strikers/

    neomarxist pipelines — Nasir Shuja


    What's that?

    I have an image of a pipe full of the oppressed...
    Banno

    Or the newly oppressed? It looks like there may be plenty of those in the near future!

    Edit; Oh shit! I've just gone and done what I decided I ought not have...so much for self-discipline!
  • Banno
    23.4k
    Vote Green.
  • Janus
    15.5k
    Ah, what the hell, here I go again!

    That'd be at least probably a move in the right direction...
  • Banno
    23.4k
    Shit happens.

    The article you cite, on a quick read, says that governments won't act because they haven't previously acted.

    Perhaps this situation is different enough to break that inductive logic.
  • Janus
    15.5k
    Yes, hopefully it will be possible for governments to act in some way to make a real difference to greenhouse emissions. But one of the problems is that, for example, if a rapid transition to renewables were mandated, it's not easy to see how it could be done without significant reliance on fossil fuels.

    Our present prosperity and the projected prosperity of the third world is reliant on cheap energy; and it's difficult to see how else the first could be sustained and the second brought about. Fossil fuels are far cheaper than they should be; they are currently subsidized to the tune of something around 5 billion dollars globally according to some of the reports I have read.

    Could we make a rapid transition that halted, or even significantly reduced, fossil fuel use at all, and even if we could would it not collapse the current economy which is so debt-laden that it relies on constant growth, which even in the existing system is looking more and more impossible? Even if the political will were there in our leaders, would the plutocracy allow the necessary changes?

    And even if it could be done without fossil fuels, what would be done with all the existing cars, trucks, planes and so on? Would most people be prepared to give up their vehicles and international flights and use public transport for local travel only, and even if they were, would the existing infrastructure be able to cope with all the extra people? Is there enough lithium to sustain a massively increased demand due to a burgeoning battery industry for very long? So, many questions, so few answers, it seems!

    I think the article warrants a close read.
  • BC
    13.2k
    I am of the opinion that we can not overstate the complexity of the unfolding catastrophe of global warming, pollution (everything from oil slicks to plastic micro beads, Neonicotinoids, RoundUp, plutonium...), post-peak oil, overpopulation, etc. I think we're screwed, pretty much. We have created problems which are beyond our capacity to grasp, let alone solve.

    make the energy grid more efficient, research renewable energy more, eliminate toxic waste/clean up, educate on nutrition/population increase...Nasir Shuja

    This is all stuff we should have done back in the 1970s, at the latest. 40 years worth of C02, methane, and humanoid accumulation later, it's a bit late to start doing that.

    Oh, don't worry about population, by the way.

    because we cant just force policy on them in the modern ideologically secular worldNasir Shuja

    Maybe we can't, but old Mother Nature has no problem forcing policy on people in the modern ideologically secular world. Her methods tend to not be very nice, but as policy goes, she's good at reducing populations--starvation and disease for starters. She can throw a population crash like nobody's business. Most likely she has some policy solutions in mind for us wealthy, industrialized nations too, especially pompous secular ones. Bad air, poisoned environments where pollinators go extinct, not enough electricity, rising ocean, not enough food (especially those out-of-season strawberries), new diseases, drug resistant bacteria and fungal diseases, running out of oil, people going crazy, formerly civilized places turning into behavior sinks...

    We don't know shit from shinola when it comes to the kinds of revolutionary changes that could have saved us from the grand comeuppance we are headed for. We have all these institutions that are beyond our control, never mind changing the behavior of 300 million Americans, 500 million Europeans, 2 billion Asians, etc. For instance, we have NO IDEA what we are going to do when we run out of oil--which we will do. And so much of our civilization depends on that marvelously energy dense, portable, AND LIMITED supply of petroleum. Not just gasoline, but a vast array of chemical industries. Polyester anyone (dimethyl ester dimethyl terephthalate (DMT) and monotheluene glycol)? Nylon? Plastic plastic plastic? Where do you think this stuff comes from?

    I rather suspect that Mother Nature has already set new policies into motion, most of which we're not going to enjoy very much.
  • Janus
    15.5k
    Sounds like you are even more pessimistic than I am!
  • Deleted User
    0
    Alright, yea, so we're behind schedule perhaps, we'll have to see what happens, we need more data even now, etc. The article seems to explore a lot of the logical ifs and then, which I like; I guess the focus on person action as far as lifestyle is okay. I am learning about this so I can go into agriculture and do it the best I can, by the way, so my input is just to look out for yourself as best you can, do what you can for others, but ultimately just let go on an inner level (applies mostly to me since I'm young and fresh). My input to agriculture is in the topic of scaling up organic or if on a smaller parcel of land making it efficient while high yield and low labor etc. That can be done (has been done many times), more people are interested in it, it's key to the fossil fuel dilemma, and I enjoy it. So for the time being I will allow myself to move on from this refresher phase of sustainability education now that I have a better understanding of what's going on. That's really all I was trying to achieve anyways, I had a hunch, a strong one, that we just kind of need to take it as it comes. After those responses and whatnot (given people on this forum are well read, smart, and sensible), I feel okay with that decision. That's all really.
  • Grre
    196

    Definitely not a proponent of eugenics, at least as far as eugenics implies 'racial' purity ect. I mean anti-natalism, at least to begin with, encouraging people not to have biological offspring. People can try to be as 'eco-friendly' as possible, but the most eco-friendly thing you could do, is not produce more humans to add to the ever-growing carbon footprint/consumer basis. There are millions of children in the world who are suffering and need love, resources, ect. both in developing countries AND domestically. We must make the adoption process more accessible, and less stigmatized so very few people feel the need to produce more children. Populations by country can be supplemented with smart dispersal, based on space + available resources and economy. These are simple mathematical equations that can be used to organize people and children needing families.
  • Grre
    196
    People balk when I bring this up (at dinner, talk about awkward conversation) because they feel as if I'm taking away some kind of assumed inherent right to reproduce. I think we need to work on changing this attitude. You do not need to reproduce to make life complete, you can have a meaningful life without having children. Having children should rightly be considered a privilege, not a right, because it is a major responsibility, arguably the biggest responsibility one could ever take on in this life.
  • Deleted User
    0
    I've always felt that way to some degree, ignorance interfering with parenting that is. But what can I do? Improve upon what I see, I guess.

    Anyways I did a quick drawing of various agricultural themes based on natural patterns, perhaps people here might be able to elaborate on any systems patterns they find within agriculture that are of any import here.

    Agriculture: rivers to rhizomes

    https://photos.app.goo.gl/izCFZWRAVckeSNCv8
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