• removedmembershiptx
    101
    Hello everyone,

    This is my first post on this site. I tried my best to not make this long winded, but I've undoubtedly failed to do so. :/

    There are many overwhelming feelings and perceptions that bring me here today. I want to call into question and assess the more significant, generally themed issues I deal with.

    First off, I have been diagnosed with Schizoaffective Disorder. I bring my mental condition up because it pertains to how I perceive (and can mispercieve) the reality I exist in and affects my thought process when interpreting it. I, however, tend to be especially cautious with what my intuition can suggest to me. I accept that euphemistically speaking, 'my barometer is broken'.

    It may seem like my discussion would be more appropriately posed in another category, but I've chosen to submit it in ethics because this is more about discussing the implications of what I can only at best suspect (made more limited by my impaired sense of reality), as opposed to trying to prove what's led me to hypothesize what I'm questioning in the first place. I know full well the instances and correlations of what has brought me to challenge what I've perceived (and how I personally experience the patterns I interpret) are compromised. However, that misses the point in this case, because I'm not asking to discuss accuracy. I am questioning the ethics of a problem I at the very least subjectively discern and experience in my day to day ongoings (however compromised that experience is in lining up with reality).

    In exploring the implications of something I can only at best hypothesize, I consider that Science similarly allows for the scrutiny of claims scientists pose. This is one of the ways to determine if an observation holds up to our reality -- even before consensus -- and concludes it does so if it is expected to fulfill the steps necessary to meet the status of being a tested theory. I'll probably never have all that's necessary to fully verify or debunk what I suspect is happening to me either way. What I've inferred (or mis-inferred) still presents ethical implications I would like to hypothetically and thoroughly explore in discussion.

    I will start off by describing a factual details about myself.

    I am a 30 year old man who is homeless. I live in the US. I receive a disability check for my mental disability (which I underscore is legitimate for those whom will undoubtedly be dubious concerning my condition). I have no criminal record. I have not been able to hold down a job for more than a couple of months due to the overwhelming paranoia I experience in the work settings I happen to be in when I do attempt to proceed with employment.

    I have trouble maintaining friendships and distance myself from family, save my mother (though I am the only child of a single mother and have no siblings from either parent, so, it's not difficult to be distant of extended family). I began having what is considered to be an unhealthy and "immoral" sexual relationship with a 34 year old man when I was 10 years of age; this lasted until I was about to turn 14 (I kept this from everyone until I turned 25 and finally told my mom). At this moment, I choose to be agnostic (I neither affirm nor deny God's existence -- how can I?).

    It can most likely be inferred from what I stated above that I am a homosexual. I struggle with social anxiety (specifically agoraphobia and gelotophobia). I often search out erotica on online communities as a way of appeasing my sexual curiosities, and I feel I encounter peers I share an affinity with on such community forums -- more so than in real life or on other sites (though I am hoping this forum achieves the same effect on me). I am for the most part in agreement with and an adherent of an Objectivist school of thought.

    I address these facts and subjective stances to shed some light on my circumstances and personal nature. I believe they are pertinant to this discussion. Again, not looking for people to feel sorry for me. I'm more aiming to share relavent details about myself that relate back to my concern. This is my attempt in providing a bird's eye view of significant factors to keep in mind.

    I suspect I am being consistently tracked and casually harassed. I doubt this comes as a surprise to anyone, which is fair enough. Nevertheless, I want this stance to be set aside in order to get to what I'd more to the point like to address.

    I want to now ask anyone interested in this topic to share the ethical implications you feel having this done to a someone undermines as a private citizen who has Human Rights. This excludes a cause for a terrorist investigation or justified concern by DHS -- whom are trained to properly handle bypassing a citizen's individual rights of privacy (for the most part, or at the very least are supposed to be) -- in order to determine a possible national threat.

    I'm more referring to "vigilante" private citizens. A formed group composed of those whom are technologically proficient and whom may have the resources necessary to hack someone. Their motivation may be to "karmically" punish someone for interests found to be reprehensible and suspect. Invading such an individual's privacy systematically (phone camera, audio, geo-location, online activities, accounts, etc.) being their method of obtaining intimate details.They may then weaponize the information they've gleaned against such an individual.

    Even though this is considered very unlikely, it's not altogether implausible. Simply put, if this were to occur, then, what do you believe are the ethical implications?

  • ZhouBoTong
    456
    I want to now ask anyone interested in this topic to share the ethical implications you feel having this done to a someone undermines as a private citizen who has Human Rights. This excludes a cause for a terrorist investigation or justified concern by DHS -- whom are trained to properly handle bypassing a citizen's individual rights of privacy (for the most part, or at the very least are supposed to be) -- in order to determine a possible national threat.THX1138

    Interesting read. I hope you find comfort in life.

    In noticing this one bit, I couldn't help but see parallels with the treatment of black Americans. Whether it is police, or a concerned citizen ("concerned citizen" sounds way too nice for these people), people feel the need to monitor their behavior.

    I'm more referring to "vigilante" private citizens. A formed group composed of those whom are technologically proficient and whom may have the resources necessary to hack someone. Their motivation may be to "karmically" punish someone for interests found to be reprehensible and suspect. Invading such an individual's privacy systematically (phone camera, audio, geo-location, online activities, accounts, etc.) being their method of obtaining intimate details.They may then weaponize the information they've gleaned against such an individual.THX1138

    While she was not violent, but the quote above reminds me of that white lady that called the police on a young (like 5-8 years old) black girl selling bottled waters.

    I agree with you that this type of citizen monitoring is immoral (unless EVERYONE is monitored - and that is very unlikely until our A.I. overlords emerge). But I do NOT feel that I have really had to suffer this type of treatment. So, all I can do is offer condolences.

    There are a few philosophers here who happen to be black. I am not sure if they are American.

    @Pattern-chaser @Anaxagoras If I am correct in assuming you are black (I apologize if I am wrong), do you see any parallels? Any advice for someone who feels their actions are constantly monitored whether by government entities or private jerks?
  • Pattern-chaser
    1.8k
    No, I'm not black. I'm very conventional: elderly white cis male, retired techie, from England.
  • tim wood
    3k
    May a person know what part of speech "cis" is?
  • Anaxagoras
    349
    do you see any parallels? Any advice for someone who feels their actions are constantly monitored whether by government entities or private jerks?ZhouBoTong

    Can you elaborate? I'm sorry brain is not working properly.
  • Sir2u
    1.8k
    May a person know what part of speech "cis" is?tim wood

    Of or relating to people whose gender identity is the same as their birth sex; not transgender
  • tim wood
    3k
    Thank you. "Cis male." May I - should I - assume Pattern-chaser is being sardonic?
  • unenlightened
    3.9k
    First, thank you for sharing your story with strangers so eloquently, and in defiance of your paranoia. It shows both strength of character and provides a motivation for your particular theme.

    I think everyone has conflicting urges in this regard, on the one hand for being known, as fame or intimacy, and on the other for privacy and anonymity. A hundred years ago, most people lived in a small community - a village - and were so intimately known to their neighbours that keeping any secret was extremely difficult.

    And now the internet has produced a global village where secrets are equally difficult to keep. There are real moral issues around stalkers, vigilantes, gossips, and manipulators, but though the technology is new, the morality and immorality is not. Witch-hunts have a history.

    The US, and Objectivism in particular, has a great emphasis on the individual, as if every man is the pioneer building his own world alone with his bare hands, whereas China, say, or Europe, has a much more social, community based view of identity. This leads in turn to a rather rigid and intolerant identity in the US, such that any failure to thrive is seen as a personal failure rather than a social problem. One might say that the only social problem is that there are so many personal failures.

    So you may be resistant to the idea that the society you live in, or rather fail to properly live in, is set up to keep you out. Failure is privatised and success is publicised, and you are brought up in a shaming world the keeps you out and blames you for it. And a diagnosis of mental illness is the nearest thing to an exoneration you can get.

    If you want a theorist/therapist who makes a strong connection between childhood experiences and adult problems, Gabor Mate might be your man.
  • leo
    585
    Hello,

    I suspect I am being consistently tracked and casually harassed. I doubt this comes as a surprise to anyone, which is fair enough. Nevertheless, I want this stance to be set aside in order to get to what I'd more to the point like to address.

    I want to now ask anyone interested in this topic to share the ethical implications you feel having this done to a someone undermines as a private citizen who has Human Rights. This excludes a cause for a terrorist investigation or justified concern by DHS -- whom are trained to properly handle bypassing a citizen's individual rights of privacy (for the most part, or at the very least are supposed to be) -- in order to determine a possible national threat.

    I'm more referring to "vigilante" private citizens. A formed group composed of those whom are technologically proficient and whom may have the resources necessary to hack someone. Their motivation may be to "karmically" punish someone for interests found to be reprehensible and suspect. Invading such an individual's privacy systematically (phone camera, audio, geo-location, online activities, accounts, etc.) being their method of obtaining intimate details.They may then weaponize the information they've gleaned against such an individual.

    Even though this is considered very unlikely, it's not altogether implausible. Simply put, if this were to occur, then, what do you believe are the ethical implications?
    THX1138

    Have you recently received an email telling you that you have been recorded on your webcam while watching pornographic material?

    If so, that is a scam, as reported here https://blog.malwarebytes.com/cybercrime/2019/02/sextortion-bitcoin-scam-makes-unwelcome-return/

    In a nutshell, many websites get hacked, when a website gets hacked the hackers can often get access to the email/password combinations used on the website, then they sell that data on the deep web. Then some scammers write you an email and mention the password in the database as supposed proof that they have targeted you personally, then pretend they have recorded you doing questionable stuff to extort money from you.


    If this is not what happened to you, then to answer your question more directly, I suppose it would depend on how reprehensible your interests are. If you have evidence of them harrassing you, you could go to the police. If you don't want the police to know about your interests but want to keep doing what you're doing without being targeted, and you have evidence that your computer has been compromised, you could learn about computer security to prevent it from happening again.
  • Sir2u
    1.8k
    May I - should I - assume Pattern-chaser is being sardonic?tim wood

    Honest I think. :chin:
  • tim wood
    3k
    Fair enough. It's the whole idea of "cis." But it's not your fault and you didn't do it. And fair chance you think it's an unnecessary absurdity as I do.
  • Daniel Cox
    129
    Hello, I'm a firm believer in the 11th commandment, "Thou shalt not get away with it."

    Some people are monstrous, psychic vampires, and vicious, violent physical attackers. Armed with technology they certainly are a force to be reckoned with and they are altogether damned. If this is the only world where judgment is meted out than those best at violence win.

    I've been going to the same mental clinic for the last 11 years, Riverside - the largest in the state of California, and schizophrenia seems to be one of the hardest conditions to deal with. I'm always looking for friends too, it's easier for me, I'm diagnosed bipolar type 2. My only real episodes occur when my computer slows or I forget where I placed something. Trying to work on both.
  • ZhouBoTong
    456
    No, I'm not black. I'm very conventional: elderly white cis male, retired techie, from England.Pattern-chaser

    hahhaha. well, not even close on that one, got to work on that reading comprehension. at least I let the OP know of at last one poster they can ignore (me) :grimace:
  • ZhouBoTong
    456
    Can you elaborate? I'm sorry brain is not working properly.Anaxagoras

    Evidence is suggesting that it was my brain that was not working. The OP was worried about being monitored by government or civilian vigilantes. I have not had to deal with that experience, but was thinking that black people in America may have dealt with that.

    However, I have been jumping to conclusions here on both ethnicity and nationalities, so if it does not pertain to anything in your life, that is entirely my fault. Thanks for taking the time to respond.
  • Bitter Crank
    8.2k
    Good handle there. THX1138 is a pretty good sci-fi flick about a society where there was no privacy. It had a nice ending, when THX1138 managed to escape because the budget for his capture ran out of money and was called off.

    I suspect I am being consistently tracked and casually harassed. I doubt this comes as a surprise to anyone, which is fair enough. Nevertheless, I want this stance to be set aside in order to get to what I'd more to the point like to address.THX1138

    Corporations are tracking you on line, certainly. They are tracking all of us, and would like to track us much more -- not for reasons of national security, but for reasons of commerce. They want to sell us stuff; in all likelihood, they want to sell us stuff we don't need, and may not even want. They aren't interested in us as "persons" so much as potential sales. Now, this isn't exactly new. Intensive, national sales efforts have been underway in the industrial world for at least a century.

    The Government has the wherewithal to track us, too. After 9/11 a massive surveillance effort was undertaken to sift internet traffic (e-mail and text messages) for signs of conspiracies. As far as I know (and why would I know anything about it?) this effort failed to find many conspirators.

    People are "leaking" all sorts of information about themselves. Carrying a cell phone with you at all times allows for a trail of one's locations to exist. People blather away on Twitter, Facebook, and so forth -- providing all sorts of information about themselves. Corporations track what you buy, through the use of the check-out scanner and credit-card payment systems. Target, for instance, is able to identify when their female customers are pregnant by tracking changes in purchasing. The changes are subtle, and indirect -- but consistent enough for a pattern to be detected. Why is Target interested in pregnant women? Because they want to establish a close relationship with that pregnant woman that will last for years of purchasing. Money, money, money.

    So, your fears about privacy are hardly paranoid.
  • Sir2u
    1.8k
    It's the whole idea of "cis."tim wood

    At least he made the effort to keep things clear.

    And fair chance you think it's an unnecessary absurdity as I do.tim wood

    Whether absurdities are necessary or not I gave up trying to figure out a long time ago. In today's world it is sometimes even difficult to decide if somethings are absurd or not. I start doubting if one still has the ability to distinguish it from the norm. :gasp:
  • tim wood
    3k
    Verily, truly, amen.
    even difficult to decide if somethings are absurd or not. I start doubting if one still has the ability to distinguish it from the norm.Sir2u
    Sometimes it takes a decision. Once that's done, it becomes clear it was always a decision - whether one knew it or not.

    The which throws a different light on things: it's not what things are (that is, the kinds of things relevant here) but how we regard them. Interesting because if it's not our overt decision, who's is it? And why? And is it really in our best interest?

    Our friend is a cis male. Who said? Why and to what end? Who centered transgenderism such that the rest of us should qualify what we are as to the genesis of how we are, whether "as originally equipped" or otherwise? Don't encourage me to rant, here!
  • Sir2u
    1.8k
    Sometimes it takes a decision. Once that's done, it becomes clear it was always a decision - whether one knew it or not.tim wood

    Transgender six year old. Absurd or not? Take a decision.

    Don't encourage me to rant, here!tim wood

    I don't encourage anyone to rant, ........................well maybe sometimes. :halo:
  • Sir2u
    1.8k
    I want to now ask anyone interested in this topic to share the ethical implications you feel having this done to a someone undermines as a private citizen who has Human Rights.

    I'm more referring to "vigilante" private citizens. A formed group composed of those whom are technologically proficient and whom may have the resources necessary to hack someone. Their motivation may be to "karmically" punish someone for interests found to be reprehensible and suspect. Invading such an individual's privacy systematically (phone camera, audio, geo-location, online activities, accounts, etc.) being their method of obtaining intimate details.They may then weaponize the information they've gleaned against such an individual.Even though this is considered very unlikely, it's not altogether implausible.
    THX1138

    As you and others have stated, there are hackers getting information from all kinds of websites and even websites that are set up for the purpose of obtaining information about people then disappearing. Banks have been known to share information about you spending habits. Interactive devices that sit around your house, even your cellphone listens to you. Cameras, public and private follow you around watching what you are doing. You are being monitored, most people that live in even small towns are. You cannot escape it unless you move to the woods.

    Is it morally correct to monitor people? That would depend on what was done with the information gained from doing so. Murderers and other criminal have been caught, traffic problems have been prevented from becoming dangerous to motorists, people are being provided with better services when shopping and many other examples of benign use can be shown.

    But if the information being garnered was to be used for targeting individuals for financial gain or even for screwing people's lives up just for fun, then that is highly immoral.
  • removedmembershiptx
    101
    Thanks for all the thoughtful takes on what I'm going through.

    I'm Hispanic and my ethnicity is a non-factor in the part of the U.S. I'm at (there are still parts in the U.S. that aren't Hispanic shunning, though I can relate a bit to being alienated, for one reason or another. There happen to be many things about myself that deviate from convention, that's an accurate inference.

    I do understand why it occurred to you, ZhouBoTong, to draw a parallel between the not too distantly passed (and not altogether presently eliminated) struggle African-Americans have had to sustain in the U.S. and the treatment I deal with, which seems more to do with the resulting approach from others (mistreatment) more than particularities of circumstance.

    I just happened to experience not only personal neglect, I also had to manage being psychologically conditioned with concepts that discouraged my intrinsic nature (Christianity looming over me as my homosexuality surfaced). I have many other challenges too, which only served to compound the distress and utter lack of support in my life growing up.

    These aren't my excuses, I ultimately account for my decisions and actions (when being accused of something that's accurate, or the severity of consequence I should sustain from any legitimate accusation). I'm merely mapping out the conditional steps and factors that have led me to this point.

    My thought process is... disorganized. Despite this, I've been told that for a schizophrenic, I have great self-awareness and am exceptionally measured in handling perceived contention. I still notice people communicating -- usually passive-aggressively, other times, taking a more ambushed, offensive way of going about it -- that I'm aversive and contemptiously unwelcomed.

    Again, I know these perceptions are a textbook example of schizophrenic symptoms. But, just because I'm mentally ill doesn't necessarily mean the community I'm in -- and by extension, others in any other area I relocate to via relayed information -- wouldn't sociologically have a problem with me for specific reasons, reasons that aren't racially, sexual orientation, mental competency or even socioeconomically rooted.

    I have the impression it primarily has to do with my ideology. My sense of what's "okay", which they aren't okay with.

    I mentioned I had what is considered an inappropriate sexual relationship with a grown man when I was a young boy. As a result of this experience, I don't feel that an individual who wants to consensually (not in the technical, legal sense but in the typical definition of consensual) have sex with any other consenting individual should be prohibited from doing so due to age.

    And, there it is. I know what I experienced, this is how I feel.

    This doesn't mean I want to live in a society where this is aimed for, because I know most children don't desire to have sex before puberty (from what I can tell). I don't even mind being in a society where it's illegal, so be it. By personal experience, I know that there are cases like mine. I've met them personally -- other men whom had sex with older men when they were underage and don't feel they were raped. To me, rape is sex against the willingness of anyone who may be involved. What I made the decision to do twenty years ago was not against my will. How I decide to assess my experience now is my own opinion.

    I'm not on a mission to perpetuate this stance -- which, I have personally confirmed I am not alone in maintaining). I understand my case is an anomaly (though, not as scarce as most others would prefer to believe). I realize my outlook is immoral and moreover -- illegal.

    I've never sexually offended a child, in any legal sense or otherwise. I experimented with other children when I myself was still a child, both older and younger than I. I'm betting that most if not all of you would refuse to believe that sexually interacting with children isn't something I intend to ever do, but, it's not. I'm still attracted to older men, though do enjoy vicariously watching porn with a more mature man and eighteen year old teen duo (which is legal and widely available). I only feel that children should have a choice if they of their own accord and volition (as was the case with me) have a desire to seek it out. I agree the general inclination of children whom this inkling doesn't apply to to be of innocence while they grow up. But, I accept that there are an extremely small minority of children that gravitate to seeking sex out, as I already was years before my puberty.

    So, to me, the way I feel could easily be fodder for phone pinging and gas lighting, if others were aware of how I really feel. I don't think anyone would believe I can currently champion Human Rights -- especially consent -- and simultaneously not be ideologically troubled by the idea of a pursuant underage individual making the willing choice to engage in sexual activity. I'm not a fan of people having to be subjugated to experiences they feel traumatize them and go against their nature and will, which in my case, came in the form religious shaming. Of course, I know religion isn't always weaponized, but, during my childhoid, it was used to get me to deny and "cast out" my sexual orientation -- however ineffective it was in discouraging me. I'm still haunted by pastors and church members rebuking "demons" out of me and the personification of my sexuality as a possesdive demonic entity (which warped my mind as a kid).

    I willingly decided to experience what I experienced. I am what I am. I have no desire to be predatory to children. My past experiences may influence my ideals, but they do not correlate with my intentions. My ideals are indicative of what I've personally lived and my perspective based on how I felt then and how I feel about it now. I'm not looking to harm anyone nor degrade the moral of society.

    I just know my reality, even if I'm schizophrenic. I don't think I deserve to be oppressed when I'm doing my best to be considerate of others the way I'd like them to be considerate of me, while also being sincere about how I actually feel.

    Is that unreasonable? Does that make me weak by consensus?
  • unenlightened
    3.9k
    You have told us some stuff about yourself, that you yourself consider significant.

    A. A childhood sexual experience.
    B. A debilitating mental health condition.

    And you seem to think there is no connection. I am not in a position to contradict you, but I am rather dubious. But I don't think it would be appropriate to go into that further on this site. I hope you can somehow find a trustworthy person to go into all this with in the real world.
  • leo
    585


    I am of the idea to let people do whatever they want, as long as it is what they want and no one is forced in the process.

    I don't think it's too uncommon for 10 years old boys or girls to have some sort of sexual desires, but I would think that in most cases they are fantasies and that if presented with the occasion they wouldn't actually go through with it.

    I don't know how your relationship with that 34 years old man started, but I would think he is the one who initiated you, rather than you actively looking for that kind of relationship back then.

    If you weren't traumatized at all by this experience, but you truly enjoyed it, then what's bothering you is how society treats these kinds of experiences, making you an outcast. On the one hand there is you, who apparently enjoyed that experience with this older man, and on the other hand there are plenty of people who strongly desire to torture or kill older men who have these experiences with young people.

    It's a touchy subject. There are/were societies and communities where this is acceptable, but today you live in a society where it's totally not. Obviously parents do not want their children to be soiled and mentally/physically destroyed by disgusting child molesters, hence the usual strong reaction. But at the same time, as a boy I probably wouldn't have minded having a sexual relationship with a woman I fantasized about as long as I was a willing participant, I surely wouldn't have been traumatized unless there had been coercion involved. On the other hand the bullying I experienced at school was real and traumatizing, but society doesn't mind that much about that, so go figure. There is some torture that society deems acceptable, and there are consensual enjoyable acts that society deems horrible and deserving of torture.

    You mentioned being diagnosed with schizophrenia, do you know what led to this diagnosis?
  • leo
    585
    You have told us some stuff about yourself, that you yourself consider significant.

    A. A childhood sexual experience.
    B. A debilitating mental health condition.

    And you seem to think there is no connection.
    unenlightened

    Here is how he referred to this childhood sexual experience:

    "What I made the decision to do twenty years ago was not against my will"
    "I willingly decided to experience what I experienced"

    Here is how he referred to how he was treated for being attracted to men:

    "I'm not a fan of people having to be subjugated to experiences they feel traumatize them and go against their nature and will, which in my case, came in the form religious shaming"
    "I'm still haunted by pastors and church members rebuking "demons" out of me and the personification of my sexuality as a possessive demonic entity (which warped my mind as a kid)"

    If you're looking for a connection between his past experiences and his current mental health, I would rather pick the experiences that actually traumatized him.
  • fdrake
    2.5k


    Childhood sexuality among consenting children is a taboo when it probably shouldn't be. Pedagogy students for nurseries here (Norway) are now being taught to be quite accepting of child sexuality among children, and this comes along with educating children about consent from a very young age. I don't know how long this has been going on for, but it looks to be an important shift.

    At least when I was growing up, sexuality was treated either as a matter for human anatomy or shame, and people largely got their first knowledge about sexuality from word of mouth or porn mags (the internet was still too young for widespread porn videos). Cue hilarious misunderstandings from young men thinking women pee out their buttholes.

    Though towards the end of college (16-18 year old), sex ed included explicit lessons about sexual consent. Whereas the previous sex ed (at 12 years of age) consisted of watching a video of anthropomorphic (and suspiciously colour coded, pink=female white=male) rabbits fucking.

    Anyway, welcome to the asylum. You're unlikely to find anyone prejudiced against the mentally ill here, and if you do find your treatment uncomfortable personal message a mod and we'll try and deal with the issue.
  • removedmembershiptx
    101
    I am of the idea to let people do whatever they want, as long as it is what they want and no one is forced in the process.

    I don't think it's too uncommon for 10 years old boys or girls to have some sort of sexual desires, but I would think that in most cases they are fantasies and that if presented with the occasion they wouldn't actually go through with it.

    I don't know how your relationship with that 34 years old man started, but I would think he is the one who initiated you, rather than you actively looking for that kind of relationship back then.

    If you weren't traumatized at all by this experience, but you truly enjoyed it, then what's bothering you is how society treats these kinds of experiences, making you an outcast. On the one hand there is you, who apparently enjoyed that experience with this older man, and on the other hand there are plenty of people who strongly desire to torture or kill older men who have these experiences with young people.

    It's a touchy subject. There are/were societies and communities where this is acceptable, but today you live in a society where it's totally not. Obviously parents do not want their children to be soiled and mentally/physically destroyed by disgusting child molesters, hence the usual strong reaction. But at the same time, as a boy I probably wouldn't have minded having a sexual relationship with a woman I fantasized about as long as I was a willing participant, I surely wouldn't have been traumatized unless there had been coercion involved. On the other hand the bullying I experienced at school was real and traumatizing, but society doesn't mind that much about that, so go figure. There is some torture that society deems acceptable, and there are consensual enjoyable acts that society deems horrible and deserving of torture.

    You mentioned being diagnosed with schizophrenia, do you know what led to this diagnosis?
    leo

    Your own emotional/psychological experience, and the insight it allowed you to gain is precisely my point.

    I almost feel like the vast majority of people in society are scared to admit that before the age of legal consent, they've pined for at least one adult sexually. This doesn't indicate they are predators or sick in the head, only that this is natural and quite common. I'm also not advocating that this cites a just reason to encourage relations between individuals under eighteen and those over this age. It just is what it is, no matter what societal institutions are put in place to regulate Human behavior to some general ideal daned to be the most beneficial to society as a whole.

    On the same token, conditions that can pose physical dangers and are deeply traumatizing psychologically individuals generally assessed to being strange, unflattering, etc. (but whom are otherwise not intent on endangering or mistreating anyone) are maintained and rationalized under the same supposition -- that this "discouragement" is in the long run beneficial to the social development of those within society, a natural reflex maintained by the Darwinian alphas keeping those whom exhibit non-ideal qualities and "shameful" ideas in their place and in check, even when such ideas don't exploit nor harm others and are only faulting in that they stray from mainstream standards.

    Ironically enough, being subjected to the torment of constant bullying and -- worst of all -- bystanders around the victim inadvertantly reinforcing these thugs' sense of bellicose entitlement with their enabling complacency over unprovoked acts of antagonism and consternation toward victims is more against Humans' Civil rights than what bullies often argue they revile and reprehend. Their own methods contradict their argument -- that whatever deviant individual they've targeted poses a threat to the "more vulnerable" if an example isn't made out of them. They insist that tolerance to simply agree to disagree is to them in effect agreeing, and that their violent and/or psychologically abusive reprehensions are not acts of entitlement, moreso ways to combat and weaken an introduction and thriving of detriment on their watch.

    But selective condemnation and aggression toward individuals whom deviate from societal ideals by their subjective way of thinking, behaving and/or being is pretty effed up, when oftentimes, these individuals aren't out to harm anyone. The abusers whom do so almost seem like imperial tyrants to me when I consider the usual reasons they underscore for "standing up" for what they believe in (by "knocking down" anyone who thinks otherwise, both physically and psychologically down).

    As exaggerated as my depiction of abusers/bullies may come off as and as compromised as my perspective may be taken, there very much are a good number of people whom are this extreme and imposing about their ideals, to a point of being offensive, often cunningly and non-overtly enough to where victims can't evidence the abuse -- that's if anyone who can do something just about it even decides take it seriously or care enough to. Abuse by neglect (like parents, teachers, family members, people responsible for the wellbeing of students, etc.) is underrated.

    As far as my diagnosis of schizophrenia, I was diagnosed when I was nineteen after my first major breakdown. I became anorexic because I developed a religious fixation to fasting, in a desperate attempt to to be pure and faithful enough toward God to merit being rid of the "demon" inhabiting my body (the "demon" being my sexual thoughts and orientation). I was also in constant fear that I had inadvertently committed or would inevitably commit the one unforgivable Christian sin -- blasphemy against the holy spirit.

    Like I mentioned, in my case, a strict, overly literal and extreme form of Christianity was weaponzied against me in a stake-tied-to-stem like manner, as a way of conditioning me to reject my nature while I was growing up. I'm glad I was able to recover from that state of self-hatred. Now, I'm much more inclined to want to accept myself for who and what I am, and not automatically self-shame like I've been conditioned to, but, it's been a painstaking process to "deprogram" that way of thinking. As you've probably gathered by now, I still occasionally have to fight off the dreadful nostalgic feeling of emotional shame that can sometimes reemerge and try to close-in on me. I fight it by reasoning out (as Objectively as I possibly can) the thoughts and the misleading conclusions that are internally reached (from the part of my mind conditioned to continually cast down my nature, which can still rear it's head when something someone tells me or generally asserts -- even just by opinionated statements I read online -- sets my own self-hater off) by my own mind pointing it's own "shameful" thoughts out.

    Yep, I still have to deal with a mind that becomes warped and jumbled over certain things from time to time, but that has gradually improved from how hijacked it was eleven years ago, and even before then.
  • removedmembershiptx
    101
    You have told us some stuff about yourself, that you yourself consider significant.

    A. A childhood sexual experience.
    B. A debilitating mental health condition.

    And you seem to think there is no connection.
    — unenlightened

    Here is how he referred to this childhood sexual experience:

    "What I made the decision to do twenty years ago was not against my will"
    "I willingly decided to experience what I experienced"

    Here is how he referred to how he was treated for being attracted to men:

    "I'm not a fan of people having to be subjugated to experiences they feel traumatize them and go against their nature and will, which in my case, came in the form religious shaming"
    "I'm still haunted by pastors and church members rebuking "demons" out of me and the personification of my sexuality as a possessive demonic entity (which warped my mind as a kid)"

    If you're looking for a connection between his past experiences and his current mental health, I would rather pick the experiences that actually traumatized him.
    leo

    I very much appreciate you make this correlation and pointing it out. Even when I do, most people seem to rather link my psychological traumas to consensual taboo acts over severe situations I was thrown into that were out of my control and against my will, and dismissively disqualify my self pertaining assertion.
  • Wallows
    8.7k
    My past experiences may influence my ideals, but they do not correlate with my intentions. My ideals are indicative of what I've personally lived and my perspective based on how I felt then and how I feel about it now. I'm not looking to harm anyone nor degrade the moral of society.THX1138

    So, you have insight. Congratulations as this is very hard to come by, by schizophrenics. Before I cast any questions or complaints, I was wondering if you are seeking treatment for your condition? And, I don't mean to commit the false cause fallacy here. Your concerns are legitimate and a cause for so e concern.
  • removedmembershiptx
    101
    Childhood sexuality among consenting children is a taboo when it probably shouldn't be. Pedagogy students for nurseries here (Norway) are now being taught to be quite accepting of child sexuality among children, and this comes along with educating children about consent from a very young age. I don't know how long this has been going on for, but it looks to be an important shift.

    At least when I was growing up, sexuality was treated either as a matter for human anatomy or shame, and people largely got their first knowledge about sexuality from word of mouth or porn mags (the internet was still too young for widespread porn videos). Cue hilarious misunderstandings from young men thinking women pee out their buttholes.

    Though towards the end of college (16-18 year old), sex ed included explicit lessons about sexual consent. Whereas the previous sex ed (at 12 years of age) consisted of watching a video of anthropomorphic (and suspiciously colour coded, pink=female white=male) rabbits fucking.

    Anyway, welcome to the asylum. You're unlikely to find anyone prejudiced against the mentally ill here, and if you do find your treatment uncomfortable personal message a mod and we'll try and deal with the issue.
    fdrake

    Wow, it's mind blowing to consider that approach being taken in nurturing these students. I find it's very progressive and organic. I hope this trend eventually reaches other nations and that (with moderate sensibility) adults can come to accept that it's natural for children to be sexually curious, and to not surround that wonderment with shame and perversion.

    And, thanks for welcoming me to the club.
  • removedmembershiptx
    101
    :grin: (meant to end the sentence with a happy emoji) [to fdrake]
  • removedmembershiptx
    101
    Thanks Wallow, and no worries, it's understandable to have what I considered with a bit of doubt from anyone when pointing out that I deal with mental illness and struggle to discern a legitimate concern for my privacy from typical symptomatic paranoia tinging what I experience. I'm currently on meds prescribed by my psychiatrist and see a therapist once a week. I'm fortunate to have a therapist who questions my paranoia with a "If you believe x variable is happening, what could be the 'what' and 'how' factors behind it that motivate what's driving x variable to be realized, and that has led you to this belief?" kind of approach, turning to a method of probability instead of automatically suggesting reasons why the possibility of my suspicion having any foundation in reality would be moot.

    So far, we've established that isolated instances (such as a group of douchebags giving me a difficult time for whatever contrasting characteristic they choose to have me represent) and a pattern of occasional instances (like the same guy shouting pejoratives at me whenever I happen to be in a particular public area between the late mornings to early evenings time of the day, who drives the same black truck every time he does so) are plausible -- both becomes occurances like this a common enough in general and, because I've actually recorded these instances on my phone and shown my therapist.

    As far as getting to one or more people (whom are technologically proficient enough), to the point where they'd go as far as remotely breaching, hacking and monitoring my cell phone activity to play sadistic psychological gaslight games with me and to simultaneously see if they manage to catch me seeking out illegal and heinous media or meet ups in the process -- all because my presence puts them off and leads them to sneakily look into my online activities -- is plausible (we're not talking aliens or unicorns here, being hacked is something that has been done in reality and can happen to anyone), but is also extremely unlikely.

    Still, my mind connects certain dots and formulates theories that I'd feel oppressed if legitimate (and to me, would be on par with being raped -- something horribly traumatic that I've been subjected to against my person and that would be done against my will while the perpetrators get a kick out of it), since in the past, I've shared with others (homeless people, people that wanted to reach out to me) what I have with you guys on the subject of statutory consent vs. consent by choice at any age. Some have even called me a predator (despite me never having "preyed" on children, though as a child, I did seek other children out sexually -- and they also sought me out, but, consent was always key; I don't consider what I did predatory behavior), and threatened to libel me.

    I guess I've brought it on myself if this is the case. I should have been more cautious about who I had heart to hearts with.
  • Wallows
    8.7k


    No, I want to highlight that people can be tracked to the meter by modern day phones. Now, before you act instinctually and want to throw away your phone, I should ask, who's after you? The old man is probably dead or in his home masturbating to CP. But, I'm sorry about your experiences and refer you to unenlightened's post about sharing such information with someone that can help you cope with the experience. Here, we're kind of limited to straw manning you unless you want to write a book about your experience, which I would gladly read. I used to be diagnosed as a schizophrenic, although it has changed to a psychotic disorder.

    Anyway, glad the meds are helping, and best regards.
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