We're going around in circles. I simply don't see how you could call something that's a random whim under your control. But I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. — NKBJ

Whose or "what's" whim is it? Who or what is doing something by whim?

Whose or "what's" whim is it? Who or what is doing something by whim? — Terrapin Station

That's just the thing--in your hypothetical, it doesn't matter really. You're not using any part of "you" to make the decision, you're just acting.

Furthermore, I don't think this is what most people are looking for when they speak of "freewill." They don't mean "I can sometimes choose randomly based on nothing, not even my own thoughts, ideas, reason, knowledge, and experience." Most people just want to be able to maintain that they're ability to use just those things is not coerced, which is compatible with determinism.

That's just the thing--in your hypothetical, it doesn't matter really. You're not using any part of "you" to make the decision, you're just acting. — NKBJ

??

Say that you think, "I'm going to either listen to Led Zeppelin III or Yes' Relayer." You decide to choose which one by whim. You have to do something to do that. You have to make the effort to choose one by whim. It's your doing. You're in control of it, because it's an action that you take.

You're in control of it, because it's an action that you take. — Terrapin Station

There are many examples of actions that you can theoretically take without actually being "in control." Like, when you sleepwalk, or are under the influence of some kind of "truth serum," or are being hypnotized, or have a disease like Tourette's Syndrome, etc etc.

In all these examples we would say that the person is not "in control," because they are not able to access their reasoning skills to willfully direct their actions.

There are many examples of actions that you can theoretically take without actually being "in control." Like, when you sleepwalk, or are under the influence of some kind of "truth serum," or are being hypnotized, or have a disease like Tourette's Syndrome, etc etc.

In all these examples we would say that the person is not "in control," because they are not able to access their reasoning skills to willfully direct their actions. — NKBJ

You're bringing up whether someone is conscious or not. We're not talking about an example where someone isn't conscious. We're talking about an example where they're intentionally performing an action--choosing something per whim.

It's not based on "reasons," by definition--otherwise it wouldn't be by whim. But there's nothing about being in control of something that implies reasoning.

But there's nothing about being in control of something that implies reasoning. — Terrapin Station

That's question-begging, imho.

We're talking about an example where they're intentionally performing an action--choosing something per whim. — Terrapin Station

On what basis is a person intending to do something on a whim? Even having the impetus to a whim is a cause.

That's question-begging, imho. — NKBJ

Do you just mean that you believe that being in control does imply reasoning? Why would you believe that?

On what basis is a person intending to do something on a whim? Even having the impetus to a whim is a cause. — NKBJ

You're conflating cause and determinism--which just went over that earlier. If you pick Led Zeppelin III to listen to you were the cause of that, but you weren't determined to pick it, you chose it.

The basis of intending to do something on a whim is just that--it's a notion you have. Then you can make the whim choice. That's a conscious action.

I'm getting the impression that you never choose anything on a whim, by the way. Which seems weird to me.

I'm getting the impression that you never choose anything on a whim, by the way. Which seems weird to me. — Terrapin Station

Lol. I'm not that OCD. I just think in real life, the things we call "random" or "on a whim" just seem to be that way and are actually products of my subconscious desires or other predetermined factors. Like when you drop a bag of marbles, it "seems" random where they all go, but we know that it's determined by all sorts of physics. We call it random though because we can't immediately predict all of it.

Do you just mean that you believe that being in control does imply reasoning? Why would you believe that? — Terrapin Station

Because otherwise I have no basis for choosing one mediocre 70's band over another. How do I then stop myself from listening to, *shudder* Glen Campbell?

actually products of my subconscious desires — NKBJ

I don't believe there are any good reasons to buy the notion of subconscious or unconscious mental content.

Because otherwise I have no basis for choosing one mediocre 70's band over another. How do I then stop myself from listening to, *shudder* Glen Campbell? — NKBJ

?? What would reasoning have to do with that, and how would this imply anything about whether control necessarily involves reasoning?

Aside from that, I love Glen Campbell, by the way. ;-)

What would reasoning have to do with that, and how would this imply anything about whether control necessarily involves reasoning? — Terrapin Station

Seems to me that if we just choose things on unreasoned whims, then we would constantly be doing unpredictable things. But take someone really close to you, whom you know very well: if they do something totally out of character, you don't typically say "oh, I guess that was just his "whim" taking over!" you wonder what the causes were that brought this action about. And, depending on the action, you may be more or less concerned about their mental state.

Aside from that, I love Glen Campbell, by the way. ;-) — Terrapin Station

Well, he was a pretty decent guitar player, I'll give him that.

Seems to me that if we just choose things on unreasoned whims, then we would constantly be doing unpredictable things. — NKBJ

This sucks because now I'm having to rehash really straightforward stuff that I already typed. I didn't type and I'm not saying anything even remotely near "We make all choices per whim." I wrote, " [It] Depends on the scenario. It's not as if it's just one way that we choose things, and sometimes we basically do it by whim or 'randomly.'"

I didn't type and I'm not saying anything even remotely near "We make all choices per whim." I wrote, " [It] Depends on the scenario. It's not as if it's just one way that we choose things, and sometimes we basically do it by whim or 'randomly.'" — Terrapin Station

You're right; you did make that distinction.

So let me rephrase:

Seems to me that if we just choose things on unreasoned whims, then we would constantly be doing unpredictable things. Take someone really close to you, whom you know very well: if they do something totally out of character, you don't typically say "oh, I guess that was just his "whim" taking over!" you wonder what the causes were that brought this action about. And, depending on the action, you may be more or less concerned about their mental state. — NKBJ

This sucks because now I'm having to rehash really straightforward stuff that I already typed. — Terrapin Station

Wait a sec--did my above scenario just apply here? :gasp:

Take someone really close to you, whom you know very well: if they do something totally out of character, you don't typically say "oh, I guess that was just his "whim" taking over!" you wonder what the causes were that brought this action about. And, depending on the action, you may be more or less concerned about their mental state. — NKBJ

Okay, but what does that have to do with being able to choose between two things by whim?