• Maureen
    23
    The fact that anyone is part of any religion with a God or God(s) or is an atheist, means that they either believe that the God(s) of that religion does exist or does not exist, but is otherwise not willing or is reluctant to admit the actual truth, which is that no one knows whether any God does or does not exist. You can present all of the evidence you want to support your claim, but at the end of the day you may as well just admit that you don t know if God does or does not exist, because that is the actual truth. Anyone who is unwilling to admit this in my opinion is extremely stubborn and would rather stick to their own beliefs while refusing to believe anything else, or either is not smart enough to understand that they really don t know if God does or does not exist. Moreover, does it even matter whether God does or does not exist? Like lets say it was proven that any given God(s) does exist. What will it change other than the fact that we will know that they exist?
  • christian2017
    177


    i agree except i believe your beliefs effect your actions. If i believed Stalin or Hitler was good guy it would effect how i carry my self out in society and i believe the same is true about whether you believe in god or gods or whatever. I do agree that you can't be 100% certain of most things.
  • Maureen
    23
    I don't feel like the type of person that you are is affected by whether or not you believe that God exists. For the record I did not attend church for my entire childhood until I was about 10 years old because my parents did not take me to church or talk a lot about God, but I still feel as if I was as good a person as someone could expect to be in my position, and I still feel as if I am fine in terms of who I am now in spite of the fact that I only sporadically attend church. Moreover, comparing God to someone like Hitler or Stalin is like comparing apples to oranges, because no one is necessarily a bad person in the grand scheme of things regardless if they believe that Hitler/Stalin were good people, or if they do or do not believe that God exists. This might be different if someone was consciously aware that Hitler or Stalin was bad and then they still chose to regard them as good people, but for instance if you are conditioned to believe that killing people or treating people bad is a good thing, then chances are that you may believe that someone who does these things is a good person, even though this does not make you yourself a bad person any more than it does someone who thinks killing or mistreating people is bad. Likewise, someone who does not talk a great deal about God or does not believe that God exists is not necessarily any worse of a person than someone who does believe that God exists and always goes to church, assuming that they are both morally good people who do nothing wrong and have no desire to do anything wrong in their own mind. It really just depends on their actions or what they have been conditioned to believe.
  • NKBJ
    894
    You can present all of the evidence you want to support your claim, but at the end of the day you may as well just admit that you don t know if God does or does not exist, because that is the actual truth.Maureen

    I think a lot of atheists are willing to admit that there's no definitive proof that something doesn't exist. But, as famously explained by Russell's teapot you don't have to disprove the existence of something in order to go about your merry way rightly assuming that it doesn't exist. It's the job of the believer to prove that God does exist and until the day there is such evidence, I will assume there are as many gods as there are sun-circling teapots...which is none.
  • christian2017
    177


    i agree with that. If christians aren't doing practical things to make things easier on people who suffer such as changing laws (without raising taxes) that negatively effect poor people and so on about stuff that helps suffering people then how can we christians defend our faith. I would argue most churches don't do alot to help struggling people whether those people struggle with finances or this that or something else.

    When someone says they became an atheist at age 12, i would say that is too early to make that decision because there is some much information that a 12 year old no matter how smart he/she just doesn't have.
  • christian2017
    177
    *he/she is just doesn't have
  • SethRy
    112


    Yes. I am a theist, that is really proactive regarding my faith, acknowledges that my suppositions can be mistaken. But for debate, that can flaw your points — so it should be acknowledged by both sides of this god debate beforehand.
  • SethRy
    112
    When someone says they became an atheist at age 12, i would say that is too early to make that decision because there is some much information that a 12 year old no matter how smart he/she just doesn't have.christian2017

    Really? I think that's a fine decision.
  • SophistiCat
    724
    tl;dr: Why is that that not everyone is an agnostic like myself? Those people must be stubborn or stupid.
  • Frank Apisa
    487



    Way too much use of the words "believe" and "belief" in the OP and in the responses. In a discussion about whether any gods exist...the words "believe" and "belief" are just disguises for "blind guesses."

    Some people make a blind guess that at least one god exists...some make a blind guess that none exist.

    No big deal there.

    What does become annoying are people who blindly guess that it is more likely that there is a GOD than that there are none...or people who blindly guess that it is more likely that there are no gods than that there is at least one.

    They always are the toughest to get along with.

    For me:

    I do not know if gods exist or not;
    I see no reason to suspect gods CANNOT EXIST...that the existence of gods is impossible;
    I see no reason to suspect that gods MUST EXIST...that gods are needed to explain existence;
    I do not see enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess in either direction...

    ...so I don't.
  • whollyrolling
    229
    I know that gods don't exist as confidently as I know that I exist. In answer to your question, I'd have to say that more people believe in gods than don't, so most people are unwilling to admit that they don't know whether the gods they "believe in" exist or not.
  • Pattern-chaser
    950
    It's the job of the believer to prove that God does existNKBJ

    Why is that? Must you prove that Donald Trump exists before we will discuss him with you? Every believer (belief in anything, not just God) decides what they believe. You decide whether you agree with them or not. No-one has the "job" of proving anything.
  • Frank Apisa
    487
    whollyrolling
    28
    I know that gods don't exist as confidently as I know that I exist. In answer to your question, I'd have to say that more people believe in gods than don't, so most people are unwilling to admit that they don't know whether the gods they "believe in" exist or not.
    whollyrolling

    You do not KNOW that no gods exist.

    You blindly guess that none do...just as the majority you mentioned blindly guess that at least one does.
  • christian2017
    177


    i think you agree with the OP you just wrote it better. Just my opinion.
  • whollyrolling
    229


    I don't "know" whether or not I exist either, but evidence strongly suggests to me that I do, and until such a time as evidence is presented to the contrary, I'm confident to call it "knowledge" of my existence. There is nothing to interfere with my "knowledge" that gods don't exist. There is an abundance of evidence to suggest that they don't and none to suggest that they do. It seems absurd to assert that something no one has ever experienced, that there's no evidence of, that there's no way to demonstrate, exists.
  • christian2017
    177


    "Why is that? Must you prove that Donald Trump exists before we will discuss him with you? Every believer (belief in anything, not just God) decides what they believe. You decide whether you agree with them or not. No-one has the "job" of proving anything. "

    I guess hes saying that because people who have a religion claim to have the moral high ground that they should have to try harder to prove their point because some would say that having a moral high ground imposes on people who might (keyword might) not be as moral.
  • NKBJ
    894
    Must you prove that Donald Trump exists before we will discuss him with you?Pattern-chaser

    I'd assume everyone already has had enough proof of that and then some.

    No-one has the "job" of proving anything.Pattern-chaser

    If they want me to believe it they do. If they don't, then we'll both go on our merry ways.
  • hachit
    171
    I agree, this is why I prefer to use other questions instead.
  • Terrapin Station
    8.4k


    Are you willing to admit that you don't know if there's a refrigerator in your kitchen?
  • Frank Apisa
    487
    christian2017
    34
    ↪Frank Apisa


    i think you agree with the OP you just wrote it better. Just my opinion.
    christian2017

    I do agree with the OP.
    Thanks.
  • Frank Apisa
    487
    whollyrolling
    29
    ↪Frank Apisa


    I don't "know" whether or not I exist either, but evidence strongly suggests to me that I do, and until such a time as evidence is presented to the contrary, I'm confident to call it "knowledge" of my existence. There is nothing to interfere with my "knowledge" that gods don't exist.
    whollyrolling

    I understand what you are saying. You blindly guess there are no gods.

    There is an abundance of evidence to suggest that they don't and none to suggest that they do. — Wholly

    There is NO evidence to suggest no gods exist...that cannot be used to suggest that gods do exist.


    It seems absurd to assert that something no one has ever experienced, that there's no evidence of, that there's no way to demonstrate, exists.

    Respectfully, Wholly...that is illogical.

    We have absolutely NO evidence whatsoever that any sentient life exists on any planet circling the nearest 25 stars to Sol. None whatsoever. No one on this planet has ever experienced "sentient life on any of those planets"...but that does not logically lead to "therefore no sentient beings exist on any of those planets." That DOES NOT EVEN logically lead to...it is more likely that no sentient beings exist on any of them...than that at least one has sentient life.
  • christian2017
    177


    "↪Maureen
    tl;dr: Why is that that not everyone is an agnostic like myself? Those people must be stubborn or stupid. "

    There is a practicality to religion. Religion promotes unity where there otherwise may have been none to beginning. In the book "Sapiens" by Noah Harrari he states that Religion allowed for massive coordination between people. He argues that humans at sizes greater than 150 people (apes are the same way) they can't function together without collective fiction. Money, corporations, religion, legal laws, and so on are all fictions according to the the book "Sapiens". Its a great book that is quite popular. He calls himself an atheist but he does practice a religion that emphasizes yoga. I would argue he recognizes the human mind has a side that needs some form of wierdness or spirituality.
  • NKBJ
    894
    That DOES NOT EVEN logically lead to...it is more likely that no sentient beings exist on any of them...than that at least one has sentient life.Frank Apisa

    In day to day life you continually make choices and live according to that very logic. You don't have any proof that your neighbor/parent/spouse isn't a Korean imposter sent to kill you when you least expect it. Therefore you assume they aren't. You don't have any proof that people turn into pink unicorns when you're not looking, but I bet you still assume they don't.

    I mean.... There's an infinite, incomprehensible number of things that we can't (currently) prove don't exist or happen, and yet we're all perfectly safe in assuming that absent any proof that they DO exist or happen, they don't.
  • Terrapin Station
    8.4k
    There is NO evidence to suggest no gods exist.Frank Apisa

    Sure there is. For example, when I look on my desk right now, I can't find any gods.
  • Terrapin Station
    8.4k
    In day to day life you continually make choices and live according to that very logic. You don't have any proof that your neighbor/parent/spouse isn't a Korean imposter sent to kill you when you least expect it. Therefore you assume they aren't. You don't have any proof that people turn into pink unicorns when you're not looking, but I bet you still assume they don't.

    I mean.... There's an infinite, incomprehensible number of things that we can't (currently) prove don't exist or happen, and yet we're all perfectly safe in assuming that absent any proof that they DO exist or happen, they don't.
    NKBJ

    Hey--a post that we completely agree on!
  • NKBJ
    894
    Hey--a post that we completely agree on!Terrapin Station

    There's hope for us yet! :wink:
  • Harry Hindu
    1.8k
    Why are most people unwilling to admit that they don't know if God does or does not exist?Maureen
    What is a god? - an extra-dimensional alien? Why call it a "god"?


    It's the job of the believer to prove that God does exist — NKBJ

    Why is that? Must you prove that Donald Trump exists before we will discuss him with you? Every believer (belief in anything, not just God) decides what they believe. You decide whether you agree with them or not. No-one has the "job" of proving anything.
    Pattern-chaser
    If I didn't at least define what Donald Trump is, how would you even know what I was talking about?
  • S
    9.7k
    This has probably already been said, but you neglect to consider the vital first step before reaching any conclusion on this matter, namely what exactly we're even talking about. I can reasonably conclude that under some descriptions, I know that God doesn't exist, and under other descriptions, I don't know that God doesn't exist. If your description of God leads to contradiction, then I do know that this God doesn't exist.

    It's a rookie mistake.
  • Frank Apisa
    487
    NKBJ
    703

    That DOES NOT EVEN logically lead to...it is more likely that no sentient beings exist on any of them...than that at least one has sentient life. — Frank Apisa


    In day to day life you continually make choices and live according to that very logic. You don't have any proof that your neighbor/parent/spouse isn't a Korean imposter sent to kill you when you least expect it. Therefore you assume they aren't. You don't have any proof that people turn into pink unicorns when you're not looking, but I bet you still assume they don't.

    I mean.... There's an infinite, incomprehensible number of things that we can't (currently) prove don't exist or happen, and yet we're all perfectly safe in assuming that absent any proof that they DO exist or happen, they don't.
    NKBJ

    What you "assume"...you assume. I have NOT said anything about that. I, like most people, assume all sorts of things.

    But what you assume about sentient beings on any planet circling the nearest 25 stars to Sol...has absolutely NOTHING to do with whether any sentient beings live on any of those planets.

    So why did you mention it?
  • Frank Apisa
    487
    Terrapin Station
    8.2k

    There is NO evidence to suggest no gods exist. — Frank Apisa


    Sure there is. For example, when I look on my desk right now, I can't find any gods.
    Terrapin Station

    C'mon, man. When you look at your desk...there is no evidence that there is life on any planet circling the nearest 25 stars to Sol. What makes you suppose that is evidence that there are no sentient beings on any of those planets?
  • NKBJ
    894
    What you "assume"...you assume. I have NOT said anything about that. I, like most people, assume all sorts of things.

    But what you assume about sentient beings on any planet circling the nearest 25 stars to Sol...has absolutely NOTHING to do with whether any sentient beings live on any of those planets.

    So why did you mention it?
    Frank Apisa

    Your post doesn't really make sense....but I'll try to wean as much out of it as I can.

    I assume there is life on other planets because there is plenty of reason to believe there is. For example, life evolved on this planet, so clearly it's possible for it to happen. You multiply that possibility by the number of inhabitable planets and you get a pretty decent likelihood.

    You have no precendent for the existence of gods. Not one. There's not a single reason or piece of evidence to believe they might exist.
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