Therefore, for the sake of talking about society or culturally, does that fact that prison populations are predominantly male mean or imply that females are socially superior to males? — Wallows

The prison population as such does not tell us much. We'd need to account for factors like sentencing bias, and the different ways society treats men and women at the margins of society.

Men are more aggressive and stronger. I don’t think either is “bad” or “good”.

Therefore, for the sake of talking about society or culturally, does that fact that prison populations are predominantly male mean or imply that females are socially superior to males? — Wallows

I sense a connection with your current "Unconditional Love" thread.

Now, what does "socially superior" mean? Do you mean you think maybe women are nicer than men? This is when I always ask, sarcastically, "Do you know any women?"

Would you be comfortable for someone to characterize women negatively based on perceived behavioral and gender stereotypes? If not, you should think twice about doing it with men.

Therefore, for the sake of talking about society or culturally, does that fact that prison populations are predominantly male mean or imply that females are socially superior to males? — Wallows

Wallows -- are you trying to start a fight?

The prisons also have a lot more black men than white men. Does that imply that white men are socially superior to to black men? Prison populations tend to come from poverty. Does that mean that poor people are inferior to wealthy people? Etc. Etc. Etc.

I sense a connection with your current "Unconditional Love" thread. — T Clark

An apt observation.

@Wallows: Males and females are at least somewhat differently endowed and then they are socialized to be more divergent. Nature and Nurture are both responsible. Bear in mind, though, that the divergence is partial. Males and females overlap quite a bit.

I'm glad that you and your mother are getting along well, but it would be intellectually unsound to suppose that most women are like your mother.

In the much wider world outside your home men and women display a wide variety of traits, some appalling, some angelic, some good, some bad, some overtly aggressive, some passively aggressive, some moral, some crooked, etc. Sexual divergence is common in the animal kingdom. That male and female humans are divergent should not come as a shock.

There are biological, sociological, historical, psychological, etc. reasons why men end up in prison more often than females.

One (maybe recent) theory is that men are more variable than women. We tend to be dull and stupid more often than females, but we also tend to be brilliant geniuses more often than females. (That's why there are so many men in this esteemed philosophical forum, and so few women. The cream of the male crop has risen to the top of this particular milk pail.) Consequently, men end up in prison more often and win more Nobel Prizes than women. In the middle there's not much difference.

So, it follows that there should be more men in prison and more men in professorships and high priesthoods. In the middle, most men and women live lives of quiet, middling, desperation.

Yes; but, that doesn't change the fact that there are more men in prison than women.

I mean, how do you explain that?

One (maybe recent) theory is that men are more variable than women. We tend to be dull and stupid more often than females, but we also tend to be brilliant geniuses more often than females. That's why there are so many men in this esteemed philosophical forum, and so few women. The cream of the male crop has risen to the top of this particular milk pail. Consequently, men end up in prison more often and win more Nobel Prizes than women. In the middle there's not much difference. — Bitter Crank

Are YOU trying to start a fight? :P

Like you said, plenty of historical and social reasons for these things.

Kinda hard for women to get prizes and be leaders historically when they were actively banned from participating in activities that lead to such things.

Would you be comfortable for someone to characterize women negatively based on perceived behavioral and gender stereotypes? If not, you should think twice about doing it with men. — T Clark

The ratio of men to women in prison and in crime statistics isn't a stereotype, it's a fact.

I balk at suggesting men and women are unequal. But I simply do not support or understand wanting to ignore the facts of the world and pretend men and women behave the same way when they clearly do not.

It's much more productive to try and assess WHY they do and what we can do to encourage both sexes to do more of the good stuff and less of the bad.

Yes; but, that doesn't change the fact that there are more men in prison than women.

I mean, how do you explain that? — Wallows

I explained this already. Men are stronger and more aggressive.

Neither of these traits are necessarily “bad” or “good”. What is your point?

I thought I just did.

Men are more likely to engage in state-prohibited behavior than women are, and society tends to be more concerned about the kind of violations that men engage in than what women engage in.

There are class and race issues here too. Poor black men are at the bottom of the opportunity pool, more often than not. The easiest way for poor black men to find opportunity is through crime. In poor white societies, poor white men also resort to crime to find opportunity.

Poor women engage in crime too, but are less likely to engage in crime that is intensively policed.

I explained this already. Men are stronger and more aggressive.

Neither of these traits are necessarily “bad” or “good”. What is your point? — I like sushi

But isn't it bad if these traits lead to more violence and harm in the world?

Here in the US prison populations are predominantly represented by a huge bias or tendency to be male-oriented.

Therefore, for the sake of talking about society or culturally, does that fact that prison populations are predominantly male mean or imply that females are socially superior to males? — Wallows

I would be very careful where you go with this. As has already been alluded to; drawing conclusions of superiority based on inverse proportion to prison population is likely to offend.

drawing conclusions of superiority based on inverse proportion to prison population is likely to offend — Txastopher

And then he could end up in prison, too.

But isn't it bad if these traits lead to more violence and harm in the world? — NKBJ

It depends where, when, why, etc. these violent behaviors show up.

If one bunch of violent bad guys is on the loose (bad) a bunch of violent good guys need to suppress them (beneficial). ISIS, al qaeda, or Boko Haram isn't going to be eliminated by a bunch of pacifists. If you want to seize a continent or two from the natives, something more vigorous than a tea party will have to be executed.

We generally want our side to come out on top, and in a world where there is never enough to satisfy everyone, somebody is going to be oppressed and somebody else is going to be on top. It takes a certain amount of violence (sad to say) to stay on top.

Sensible Imperialistic Powers carefully sort out worthwhile fights from pointless fights. Reckless Imperialists don't and get bogged down in unwinnable fights.

Yes; but, that doesn't change the fact that there are more men in prison than women.

I mean, how do you explain that? — Wallows

I thought he did a good job of explaining. Also, the OP wasn't asking why more men are in prison than women. It asked whether the fact that more men were in prison means women are better people.

Are YOU trying to start a fight? :P — NKBJ

How well do you know @Bitter Crank? Of course he's trying to start of fight.

If one bunch of violent bad guys is on the loose (bad) a bunch of violent good guys need to suppress them (beneficial). ISIS, al qaeda, or Boko Haram isn't going to be eliminated by a bunch of pacifists. If you want to seize a continent or two from the natives, something more vigorous than a tea party will have to be executed. — Bitter Crank

Ah, yes, endless wars and fighting. That's always so productive.

I don't really want to get too bogged down in how the "good guys" are the ones who created the "bad" ones in cases like ISIS... suffice to say that I think there are better, and yes pacifist solutions to these problems. More killing just makes more terrorists.

In any case, even if there were some cases in which (male) aggression were beneficial, it's still obvious that in most cases, historically and globally, it's very very bad news.

How well do you know Bitter Crank? Of course he's trying to start of fight. — T Clark

:rofl:

The ratio of men to women in prison and in crime statistics isn't a stereotype, it's a fact.

I balk at suggesting men and women are unequal. But I simply do not support or understand wanting to ignore the facts of the world and pretend men and women behave the same way when they clearly do not.

It's much more productive to try and assess WHY they do and what we can do to encourage both sexes to do more of the good stuff and less of the bad. — NKBJ

As I said in a previous post, the OP isn't about why men are the way they are, it's about whether it means women are better than men.

Also, the OP wasn't asking why more men are in prison than women. It asked whether the fact that more men were in prison means women are better people. — T Clark

It can be about both issues, in my opinion.

Or in other words, I am trying to draw a correlation between the population of men from a skewed statistic of the ratio of men to women in prison populations.

Kinda hard for women to get prizes and be leaders historically when they were actively banned from participating in activities that lead to such things. — NKBJ

Women have never been banned from art; they have been taking drawing and painting classes for many, many years. Yet, how many great woman painters can you name? It isn't that they can't paint well; it's just that a small number of men have been on the cutting edge. Women, for the most part, haven't. (The men are the top. Most women painters are de trop, to paraphrase Cole Porter, a superior male lyricist composer.) Yes, there are people like Clara Schumann, Lise Meitner, Marie Curie, Rosalind Franklin, Georgia O'Keeffe, Coco Chanel, Leni Riefenstahl, Jane Austin, Angela Merkel, Margaret Thatcher, and of course, the great Ivanna Trump. Exceptional exceptions.

In any case, even if there were some cases in which (male) aggression were beneficial, it's still obvious that in most cases, historically and globally, it's very very bad news. — NKBJ

About a year ago, a poster suggested we develop technologies so that men were no longer needed. Women would be fertilized technologically. Then steps could be taken stop new males from being born. Existing men would be allowed to live out their lives. It set off a real fire-storm of angry discussion. One poster flipped out and made a lot of noise about how it reflected on society's attitude toward men. He really went crazy and the thread was ultimately deleted.....Oh, wait. That was me.

Don't worry, they upped the dosages on my meds, so I'm ok now.

It can be about both issues, in my opinion. — Wallows

Sure. You're the original poster, so I have no objection. It's just that BC and my posts were in response to the original question.

As I said in a previous post, the OP isn't about why men are the way they are, it's about whether it means women are better than men. — T Clark

I think the two in this case are related: it may be that social and historical influences have (generally) made women better in this respect.

As Bitter Crank has pointed out, in other respects men have benefited from these influences.

I remember that thread!

I remember that thread! — NKBJ

Ah, yes. The high point of my philosophical life so far.

Ah, yes. The high point of my philosophical life so far. — T Clark

I still remember the anger and outrage in your posts due to that thread. But, I learned something from your reaction. That even though, women haven't been treated (and in some cases still are) equally, that it's a double wrong to feel guilty about it as a male who cares about their children or jobs or homemaking just as much as the unfairly treated women have. I mean no sarcasm or wittiness in this post.

I think the two in this case are related: it may be that social and historical influences have (generally) made women better in this respect.

As Bitter Crank has pointed out, in other respects men have benefited from these influences. — NKBJ

Of course their related, but, as we philosophers like to say, one is descriptive and one is normative. One is is and one is ought. They shouldn't be confused with each other.

Women have never been banned from art; they have been taking drawing and painting classes for many, many years. Yet, how many great woman painters can you name? — Bitter Crank

Women were never banned from art as a quaint pastime. They were expected to give it up once married and of course never pursue it as a serious career. And we'll never know how many great female artists were simply lost to history because the art world simply would not seriously consider the work of a female artist. We would never have had Middlemarch if Mary Ann Evans hadn't called herself George.

Fun fact, one of the reasons poetry has been populated by so many females for so long is that it is one of the few arts that can be written "on the go" while having little ones playing and nagging and interrupting all day long. Picasso wouldn't have had time for all that if he'd been busy child-rearing.

I still remember the anger and outrage in your posts due to that thread. But, I learned something from your reaction. That even though, women haven't been treated (and in some cases still are) equally, that it's a double wrong to feel guilty about it as a male who cares about their children or jobs or homemaking just as much as the unfairly treated women have. I mean no sarcasm or wittiness in this post. — Wallows

I can tell you are being sincere in your response.

From my point of view as a man, it's not that I "feel guilty as a male." It's that I expect to be treated with respect.