• Susu
    22
    Ok first of all, I am not exactly sure if I placed this in the right thread, if not, feel free to move it.

    Me and my friend recently had an argument about opinions on how to treat someone who is extremely hammered.

    I made a new boyfriend who is sweet when he is sober, but when he is drunk he turns a bit crazy. Before I go along how crazy he gets, let me just point out that I have been on 8 dates with him so far. 6 of which were times when he was sober and 2 where he was totally drunk. Moreover, he is not an addict. He only drank on two occasions which had an interval of 2 weeks in between and he didn't drink at during this interval, I know this because he goes to work and meetings and we chat on a daily basis. He claims that he doesn't have a history of alcohol addiction. He is more of a workaholic than an alcoholic based on how successful he is at work.

    Anyway, he doesn't measure his drinking. On the two occasions he was drinking with me he orders excessively. This results to him acting wild and beyond the pale.
    He becomes very sloppy with his stuff like wallet and phones, he gets a bit aggressive with sex but not to the point where I could classify it as rape but just stubborn, although he does listen to me when I tell him to stop. He urinates in public, he walks around wearing a thong in public spaces.

    I have been hammered before and did crazy things, albeit not to that extent. But I understand what it's like and how you absolutely have no control over yourself, which is why I don't blame him. I tend not to identify someone with their drunk persona, being drunk skews your perception and behavior. It's just poision not just the physical health but mental health. So you get to do things you wouldn't consider doing. When one is drunk, their irrational self prevails over their rational selves.

    Since I understand all of this, I decided to take care of him and his stuff. But because I also learned my lesson of what being excessively drunk can do, I also warned him the next day as he sobered up. I told him he needs to measure his drinking next time, if his sober self was still as stubborn as his drunk self then that would be it between us. He respected me and told me he will. My friend opposes my opinion, she told me if she was in my place she would have left him and went back home. She tends to percieve a drunk person as who they really are but honestly I think she's wrong. Someone being drunk might represent their deep irrational thoughts but it overlooks the rational part of their brain. When they are drunk, they are technically intoxicated. I told her that it was wrong to leave him and that since I stayed there and took care of him that he might be grateful that I did a nice thing to him. During the times he is sober he has never done anything crazy. He was a respectful man, and he treated me with chivalry.

    I was wondering what is your take on this?
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    "Who you really are" is dynamic. Every way that someone is, at every moment of time, in every circumstance, is part of "who they really are."

    People aren't just one way, they're not unchanging.
  • 0 thru 9
    1.5k
    It seems that every intoxicating substance has its general nature and effects, be it alcohol, psychedelics, stimulants, etc. On the other hand, the pandora’s box that any such substance opens in a given individual might depend on the person more than the poison. The usual idea is that alcohol is a “magnifer”. A happy person will be overly friendly, an angry person will go looking for a fight, a sad person cries into their beer, and so forth.

    There is a saying that goes something like “you can’t get tomato juice by squeezing an orange”. In other words, what is lurking in the sub/unconscious is often waiting for a chance to come out. What I find interesting (and completely understandable) is how we spend so much time and energy building up our selves and identities, and then how desperately we wish to escape these very elaborate constructions. The world is too much with us, and heavy is the head that wears the crown. This seems to be our current state of mind, by and large...
  • Possibility
    2.8k
    First of all, most people who get intoxicated every time they drink are actually unable to measure their drinking once they start, so he will likely never be able to have just one or two drinks and then stop, despite what he promises when he’s sober. This is the most dangerous part of this behaviour. You will both need to establish what situations he will agree not to drink at all, because it will likely always be all or nothing for him.

    Secondly, if you decide to stay, then I think you need to take steps to protect yourself when he’s intoxicated, because being ‘stubborn’ at this early stage in the relationship is not likely to improve. You need to establish very clearly with him, while he’s sober, where you draw the line with his drunken behaviour - so that when (not if) he crosses that line you will have recourse to distance yourself without damaging the relationship.

    I don’t think a drunk person is ‘who they really are’, but is a part of their personality that they need to acknowledge. It’s our inhibitions that alcohol removes: our self-regulation. So what we consciously work hardest at trying to control - such as sexual urges, bad language, saying whatever thought pops into our heads or violent aggression - is given free rein when we’re drunk.

    My husband is what you would call a ‘happy drunk’ - as a teacher he spends much of his working life keeping his cheerful, happy-go-lucky side in check. With a few drinks in him, he is extremely playful and spontaneous. On the other hand, I have a strong self-edit function (to the point where I’d often not speak), so I tend to have verbal diarrhoea when drunk, and also fall asleep very easily.
  • T Clark
    13k


    Of course you looked after him. You're a good person. You care about him. It was the right thing to do. Now it's your responsibility to make sure you're safe and treated with respect. It will be disrespectful to him if you don't hold him responsible for his actions.

    Also, never take advice from me.
  • fdrake
    5.8k
    We are still responsible for the stupid shit we do while drunk or high.
  • fishfry
    2.6k
    Your boyfriend is never MORE himself than when he's drunk. Get a clue before this gets worse.
  • BC
    13.1k
    Well, I have never had so much to drink that I behaved inappropriately. Ever! What! Never? Well, hardly ever. Well there was that one time... and then another time... oh yes--and that party at the pastor's house...

    How old is your boyfriend and how long has he been drinking? Maybe he hasn't yet learned the benefits of metering one's alcohol for best results.

    He doesn't sound crazy; he sounds pretty much like everybody who has a few drinks.

    At a bar, I'm not really me until I have had a beer or two. If I have 6 beers, I'm not really me either--I'm on my way to comatose. 4 beers is about right, and not too fast -- except for the first one. Hard liquor with a beer chaser produces instant oblivion, so that doesn't work either.

    Try to help your boyfriend learn how to be more of a "reflective drinker" (Ah, the next thing--reflective drinking!) Once one is drunk it's too late; before one has had anything to drink it's too early. One has to learn the effects of 1, 2, 3, 4... drinks over time, bearing in mind the strength, intake of food, what one's objective is (unwinding, a buzz, oblivion, whatever). Beer is pretty consistent in alcohol by volume. Some bars suit the needs of chronic alcoholics and pour very strong drinks, and others pour weak drinks to suit the needs of the bottom line.

    Does he eat before he drinks? Food in the stomach (more than a cracker and cheese--more like pork roast and potatoes au gratin) slows the absorption of alcohol. Carbonated drinks are soaked up faster than still drinks. Loud bars encourage heavier fasting drinking -- that's why most bars tend to be pretty noisy.

    Are you dancing or sitting still? I don't know what difference that makes. It's hard to drink and dance at the same time.
  • Sir2u
    3.2k
    As an experienced ex boyfriend/husband of several delightful females, mainly because of similar situations, I can highly recommend that you decide early on before there are complications.
    Give him advanced warning that there will be a decision making meeting about the future and that he should bring along his thoughts, you do the same. Granting that things do change when people are together plans will have to be flexible, but goals should not be.
    When me and the missus got together she was told that I did not want any more kids, I was told that she wanted to continue studying. But we bother agreed that we wanted to have our own house. Thirty something years later we have a 25 yr old daughter that finished university, the wife has her degrees, we have our own house and we do not owe anyone anything.
    But we both still drink a few beers once in a while.

    Setting and working towards goals might make him think before drink.
  • Judaka
    1.7k

    Even if you're not "you", you still interact with the people you care about and if you're hurting them or making them feel uncomfortable then you should feel responsible for that.

    Imagine if a friend set you up on a date with a guy who behaved like this man while he was drunk but all of the time. Shouldn't you be angry at your friend and ask "dId you know he was like that? Why would you set me up with someone like that?" Shouldn't your friend apologise for your bad experience? Would you trust him again to set you up with someone else after two bad experiences? Probably not right?

    If this guy really cares about you then he should have more respect for you than getting hammered in your presence and making you feel uncomfortable. You should demand that respect.
  • Brett
    3k
    [reply="Susu;d5434
    I’ve heard your story a hundred times. You’re becoming an enabler and the situation will end up as you suspect it will.
  • _db
    3.6k
    In my experience, drugs like alcohol can bring out parts of people that they usually keep hidden away, or try to repress. The person you know sober is a fraction of who they are in total. It is not always pretty to see the other sides of them.
  • I like sushi
    4.3k
    We are still responsible for the stupid shit we do while drunk or high. — fdrake

    Not quite. We’re responsible for getting drunk. If we know we act like a dick when drunk then we blindly do take the responsibility - “blindly” being key.

    On the other hand, in ancient Greece if a fight started and one person was drunk the sober one would take the blame. Although this seems harsh it does make sense. The person out of control is the responsibility of the community in this sense, and if the community doesn’t wish disruption then they must dissuade them from drinking or kick them out.
  • SethRy
    152
    If this guy really cares about you then he should have more respect for you than getting hammered in your presence and making you feel uncomfortable.Judaka



    So the man is wrong for being excessively drunk, which is occasionally, yet not right for acting with chivalry and respect when he is sober? Personal identity varies by the person's capacity to think. Empiricist philosopher John Locke proposed this 'memory theory' that your memories is what makes you, you. If the memories, including the memory to act with respect and chivalry, are not carried by him as he was drunk, he should not be held accountable for these actions. Yes, it was his choice to get drunk, but it wasn't no longer after he had a few drinks.
  • Judaka
    1.7k

    As I said, even if we grant that the man is not himself when he's gotten too drunk, it doesn't take away his responsibility. If he had a friend who continually disrespected your girlfriend while he weren't around, he isn't responsible for what his friend did but it is his responsibility to do something about it. It isn't good enough for him to just be a good guy who does nothing about his disrespectful friend, if he cares about his girlfriend then you shouldn't allow her to be disrespected.

    Another way to look at it is that as the girlfriend, the boyfriend has basically told you that he won't do anything about his friend. if she want to stop being in the presence of this guy who disrespects her and acts in an appalling manner then she has to break up with him. He's forcing her to make a choice but I don't think it's right that the guy just acts like a bystander.
  • SethRy
    152


    I do believe that as a girlfriend — she should not make an evaluation immediately and should take it for a while and see how it goes.

    He's forcing her to make a choice but I don't think it's right that the guy just acts like a bystander.Judaka

    I also think that he is not forcing her to make a decision. When having an intimate relationship,
    I guess this one might be an exception as they are, like she said, have only dated 6 times. Other than that, it wasn't mentioned how long they were for together. It should be common to be comfortable around one's company, so he is merely doing the typical characteristic of intimacy in a relationship. As like the girlfriend asserts, he still treats the girlfriend as it follows:

    During the times he is sober he has never done anything crazy. He was a respectful man, and he treated me with chivalry.Susu

    Assuming the argument, the narrative here is how much moral actions be allowed to redeem some immoral actions. Because evidently in her post, he sounds like a man of respect besides being drunk.
  • Judaka
    1.7k

    If you don't have a reason to expect change then it's foolish to wait.

    Being respectful is basic, it's BASIC. Having basic manners and etiquette are necessary to be even taken seriously as a partner for anyone with some self-respect and sense. That doesn't give you the right to get seriously drunk and act like an ass, you aren't now such a valuable commodity that people should put up with all of your problems.

    OP can do what she wants but whether the guy is or is not being himself while drunk, what is he saying while sober? It's not "sorry I made you feel uncomfortable and disgusted by my actions while I was hammered, I don't want to put you through that again, I'm going to commit to not getting so drunk around you or whatever else". That's again, the fairly common respectful and chivalrous way to deal with that situation if that's the type of guy he is.

    If he doesn't care now, he's going to care less once they've gotten comfortable and he feels he doesn't have to work as hard to keep her around. But you think he's great because he's showing some basic human decency in a circumstance when he's got a lot to benefit from doing so.
  • Tzeentch
    3.3k
    It amazes me how people are telling one person to leave another based on a single anecdote.
  • Brett
    3k


    It’s not really a single anecdote, it’s a pattern of behaviour.
  • SethRy
    152


    I am taking judgement by given information

    • He has no sign of addiction or alcholism.
    • The situation has happened only a few times.

    Just because a few mishaps of personality wherein he doesn't actually get to control his identity because of a case of drunkness, does not condone necessity of breaking that relationship. It is understandable that he must have a moral duty to apologise for being an asshole, as it is his decision to be drinking in the first place; that he should be mature enough to remember the consequential happenings of drinking. I understand that he should still be held accountable for these past actions. However a mature relationship is to understand the flaws of the other, and to address these flaws beforehand, if he disagrees so, then there is no reason to wait.

    But if these actions are not addressed in the first place for change and consideration, it would be just plain spiteful to leave him, as it is not recognised directly as - a problem.

    what is he saying while sober? It's not "sorry I made you feel uncomfortable and disgusted by my actions while I was hammered, I don't want to put you through that again, I'm going to commit to not getting so drunk around you or whatever else".Judaka

    That is also not given. I mean, has he said, something LIKE that at least?

    here
    is a link to my question regarding two decisions and which outweighs the otherethically, and morally that is somehow related to this topic.
  • Judaka
    1.7k

    I am responding to sethry and his comments, OP already said that the guy committed to watching his drinking. The question OP asked, I've just taken for granted that we assume you are not yourself when you are drunk.

    I don't drink, so I can't really comment but who you are includes your inhibitions, I also think that being drunk raises particular interpretations over others. My dad when he's drunk is much, much quicker to anger and offend than when he's sober. I don't think of my father as being the same person when he's sober vs drunk, it's just too different. So my answer to OP is, no, you can't inform yourself about the sober man by observing him while he's drunk.

    If he does watch his drinking around OP then this is a good thing and she shouldn't worry about how he was while drunk, in my opinion.
  • SethRy
    152


    So we have reached an agreement.
  • Judaka
    1.7k

    It's rare for it to happen but on this occasion, an agreement has been reached.
  • Anaxagoras
    433


    Well, as someone who deals with this professionally all the time I will say that when the organizational thought center i.e. the frontal lobe is suppressed and all the inhibitions go away, the suppressed thoughts and behaviors come out. I don't know him so I don't think none of us can make a correct assessment even with your story considering that your emphasis on things could be blown out of proportion or you could be leaving out some stuff. After all, there are functional alcoholics that do sneaky stuff even when you're not aware that they are doing sneaky stuff (like sneaking flasks and popping mints etc).

    From what it sounds like, he seems to have poor impulse control, lack of control of his limitations upon alcohol consumption. Although as you say he may not be an alcoholic, if he is over consuming to the point of inebriation, he may be showing you signs of alcoholism. I mean, there is nothing wrong getting drunk but you ought to be just cautious and perhaps maybe you two need to slow it down. You've been on 8 dates with him and he is already your boyfriend so it already sounds like you two are moving quite fast already.
  • Anaxagoras
    433
    My husband is what you would call a ‘happy drunk’ - as a teacher he spends much of his working life keeping his cheerful, happy-go-lucky side in check. With a few drinks in him, he is extremely playful and spontaneous. On the other hand, I have a strong self-edit function (to the point where I’d often not speak), so I tend to have verbal diarrhoea when drunk, and also fall asleep very easily.Possibility

    I tend to be the giving type. If you're buying beer at a counter I may see that and pay it for you. Or I'm the playful type like joking. More importantly when I get plastered I'm more so wanting to sleep so usually I tap out early.
  • Anaxagoras
    433
    Loud bars encourage heavier fasting drinking -- that's why most bars tend to be pretty noisy.Bitter Crank

    I was going to say environment can actually play a role in behavior while intoxicated (think of a bowling alley with a bunch of other drunk people yelling).
  • BC
    13.1k
    I don't know whether or not drinking alcohol produces a Jekyll and Hyde change. I just don't know enough people well enough who have been both alcoholic and sober to make a good comparison judgement. As one would expect, my experience with alcoholics tended to be kind of negative, so I kept my distance.

    One guy I knew (a partner for a couple of years) seemed to exhibit a Jekyll and Hyde pattern, but in fact he was doing a slow burn most of the time, and the first drink just turned up the heat and he'd boil over. He was pissed off at the Benedictines (he was an ex-monk), the church, his parents, his relatives, work, me -- pretty much everybody. He was Mr. Hyde all the time, really.

    It seems to me that a lot of people drink to live with themselves. Their sober lives are just too laden with anger, bitter disappointments, frustrated aspirations, fear, etc. to deal with. So, a bottle of gin down the hatch. Heavy drinking makes life worse, so down the drain they go.
  • S
    11.7k
    We are still responsible for the stupid shit we do while drunk or high.fdrake

    Yes, but it's not that simple. Being so drunk or high that you're not exactly you is a mitigating circumstance. This actually happened to me as recently as last Friday. I was so drunk that I wasn't myself to extent that I caused a big commotion which resulted in shouting and arguments and the police being called. Some of the people involved later tried to get revenge. I caught them and confronted them, and I apologised for my behaviour the other night, but emphasised that I was drunk out of my face, whereas they are both stone cold sober, and I could instantly see the shame on their faces when I said that.
  • Possibility
    2.8k
    I tend to be the giving type. If you're buying beer at a counter I may see that and pay it for you. Or I'm the playful type like joking. More importantly when I get plastered I'm more so wanting to sleep so usually I tap out early.Anaxagoras

    My father on the other hand, was a recovering alcoholic who was sober from the birth of his first child until his youngest had left home, so I only observed his drinking habits as an adult. Like many, he only needed one drink before the first inhibition to go was his impulse control - hence his ability to regulate his drinking, then his ability to respond to reason, then his ability to manage his anger and frustration. If we weren’t at a quiet family BBQ, it might easily get out of control.

    My father was always quiet and reserved in public, almost too accommodating and peaceful. But I knew that his ability to control his anger and frustration was a conscious daily effort even when sober, because I witnessed moments when the locus of control he thought he did have (at home) was challenged, and he responded violently, sober.

    He is the same person inside, drunk or sober, with the same thoughts, beliefs and impulses at the forefront of his consciousness - despite what he assures you when sober. What changes with alcohol is simply whether or not he acts on them.
  • Anaxagoras
    433


    Interesting. I understand all cases are not created equal, but it seems your friend (and correct me if I'm wrong) has some internal issues maybe he hasn't come to peace with, and that maybe that internalized anger is pent up and alcohol is the release. Going back to what I was saying in another thread, sometimes people do not have the ability to cope with stress nor the structure to deal with daily tumultuous stimuli.

    Out of curiosity have you suggested that he get help?
  • Anaxagoras
    433


    Do you believe there to be some deep underlined psychological issues he maybe having?
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