...it is often said that the same proposition can be expressed by different sentences, even ones in different languages. — MindForged
beliefs are generally understood as propositional in nature... — MindForged
Truth is existentially dependent upon language. — creativesoul
...what do you say truth means... — tim wood
Anyone care to discuss why and/or how these are logical fictions, or propose another? — creativesoul
Validity is one aspect or test of an argument, truth a different test. Why expect two different tests to function the same? — tim wood
Different languages can say much the same thing because they can use different designators to pick out the same entities and/or draw the same correlations between these things. — creativesoul
discuss why and/or how these are logical fictions — creativesoul
Where there is no language there can be no truth. — creativesoul
Where there is no language, there can be no thought/belief. — creativesoul
logical fiction is the result of a valid argument.... It is a fiction because it is not true — creativesoul
Meaning is not identical to language. Language is a vehicle by which to communicate meaning. — MindForged
You're not really making the case for your conclusion though. If propositions were somehow dependent on language, then as I said you would be committed to the view that before language existed humans had no beliefs. You said beliefs are Propositional in nature in your OP ("All thought/belief are propositional in their content."), so I don't see how you are supposed to be avoiding the absurd conclusion that humans once lacked beliefs entirely. — MindForged
If different designators can pick out the same entity, then the content of these terms are not linguistic in nature because they transcend any particular utterance as they can be picked out by any appropriate one. Whether "The Sun is red" or "Taiyo wa akai", the same meaning is expressed. Meaning is not identical to language. Language is a vehicle by which to communicate meaning. — MindForged
You can communicate the same meaning in different languages. If meaning were bound to a language, this wouldn't be possible. — MindForged
Where there is no language there can be no truth.
— creativesoul
If I fall out of a tree, it is not true I will hit the ground, if I don’t tell anybody I just fell out of a tree? — Mww
Do I get a gold star?? — Mww
A true conclusion is not necessarily the result of a valid argument. A valid argument does not automatically yield a true result. — tim wood
If different designators can pick out the same entity... — MindForged
Anyone care to discuss why and/or how these are logical fictions, — creativesoul
There need be no language for any of that to happen. — creativesoul
Anyone care to discuss why and/or how these are logical fictions,
— creativesoul
For one, they all have false premises. — Terrapin Station
The OP sets out a few examples of logical fictions. That particular absurdity is one that I've not seen any common school of thought avoid without asserting that propositions are somehow independent of language. I've noticed you've taken that route as well. — creativesoul
Yeah, that makes little to no sense to me. I mean, I acknowledge the issue that you're trying to avoid, but do not see how you have.
"The content of these terms"
What is that?
The referents? The meaning?
Are propositions equivalent to meaning?
I reject the last claim. There are all sorts of way to use language that are not communicating meaning. — creativesoul
Meaning is not equivalent to a proposition to begin with. It doesn't follow from the fact that meaning transcends an individual speaker that propositions are not existentially dependent upon language. — creativesoul
I grant your general thesis with respect to propositional truths, but the OP designates “logical fictions”, one of which is “a truth is propositional in content”. A simple example shows a truth not to be necessarily propositional in content. — Mww
...the conclusion adheres to the principle of inductive reasoning, both of which stand the test of truth whether or not speech or any other kind of language is involved. — Mww
But the necessary truth the statement represents... — Mww
Truth isn't propositional in content. Truth is a relation between propositions and something else (the something else depends on the truth theory you subscribe to). And I'd say that the relation is a judgment that individuals make. — Terrapin Station
If by logical possibility you mean valid without respect of truth, then it's just a matter of opening up the forms of argument and stocking them with whatever propositions occur to you - and that is really a lot of possibilities. Is that what you meant? — tim wood
Well yes, it's (probably) why many do not posit propositions as linguistic. Most don't, I suspect... — MindForged
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