So, what do you think? Is there value in depression? Or do you believe it's more of a hindrance to life/philosophy? Is it necessary? — NKBJ

It is not a hindrance to philosophy. To the contrary, it helps inform it. As Camus stated, There is but one truly serious philosophical problem and that is suicide. Judging whether life is or is not worth living amounts to answering the fundamental question of philosophy.

As beings with abilities to evaluate- naturally we are tend to evaluate life itself. If life seems mediocre at best then there is something telling here. The normative approach is to try to equip the depressive individual with psychological tools to "overcome" the depression. This usually involves things such as seeking better employment, finding better social outlets, or preparing for the worst, things like that.

What is the case, however is that the world is not ideal. It doesn't conform to our preferences or even our happiness- it is mainly about learning to survive, maintain comfort, and seek out some form of entertainment.

Look at survival. We must devote time to simply keeping ourselves alive. This in itself is inherently circular- we survive to survive to survive. Then look at what we must focus on to do this. We must train our minds to not wander too much and focus on minutia that is necessary for survival in a workplace.

Look at comfort maintenance. We often devote time to simply maintaining our comfort- cleaning, preening, washing, consuming. A lot of this is deemed culturally necessary.

Look at our entertainment seeking. We get lonely and want a significant other to pal around and have physical relations with. We want friends, we want games that challenge our complex mind, we want physical and psychological pleasures, etc. All these entertainment preferences are shaped by our individual personalities. The hedonic treadmill principle may dictate that, no matter how many pleasures you get, levels even out. Pleasures aren't as good as you thought, and last less than you'd like. Survival and maintenance rears its ugly head yet again and on and on.

Yeah, can one complain about the (at best) mediocrity of existence? Can one even claim that existence is a "tyranny of the mediocre"? Evolutionary psychology simply dictates that people have to find ways to mate. Look at all the frustrations and drama wrapped up in this supposedly natural phenomena. There is nothing effortless or carefree about it for humans. The animal world is full of what we would consider appalling mating techniques. We are no exception.

If the world is mediocre- full of goal-less desires that simply perpetuate itself.. if we are running around surviving, maintaining, and running on the hedonic treadmill, why would one evaluate it as "good"? Our unique self-awareness, our language abilities, our integration of motivations, emotions, and personality, creates with it the illusion that there is more than surviving, maintaining, and entertaining. We are thrown into the world with these psychological constraints, and ways of being. We must cope and deal with being self-aware creatures with these constraints.

So, what do you think? Is there value in depression? Or do you believe it's more of a hindrance to life/philosophy? Is it necessary? — NKBJ

Let's begin with the definition of depression as an prolonged state of sadness that interferes with normal social functioning of a person. Suicide is the most dangerous outcome of depression.

With the above definition let's put depression into the context of causality.

The world has a lot of suffering, life is meaningless, death is inevitable, everything will fade from existence. If we were to become aware of these truths it would most certainly cause us to become sad. Only a fool or madman could resist the negative emotional effects of such truths. This state of sadness may not be full-blown depression but it's the first step towards it. Nevertheless, this is healthy sadness and is a normal reaction to certain facts about our world.

However, things can get carried away. Sadness, however acquired, whether through deep philosophical thinking or by just simple reflection on one's own life, can cause some undesirable effects - social withdrawal, inability to focus attention, memory loss, inability to perform at work, etc. It is then that sadness has developed into depression. This is unhealthy sadness or, in clinical terms, depression.

In short, depression as an effect of rational inquiry into our world is healthy but depression as a cause of our personal failures in society is unhealthy.

I would like to start a conversation discussing what the value of depression is, if it has any? — NKBJ

I think that the value of depression is the ability (once out of it), to appreciate what we have and be thankful for the things we don't have. This sort of runs along the lines of stating that suffering is inherently meaningful because we know what it is like to suffer and when we don't we can be glad that we are no longer suffering.

However, if the suffering is unremitting, and renders existence as ultimate torture, then, by all means, suicide can be justified; but, the majority of cases with depression erroneously conclude that their suffering will never end.

-Clinical depression: where depression inhibits an individual's ability to function
-Melancholy: a general feeling of sadness that doesn't interfere much with your life
-Grief: a sadness that comes from the loss of something or someone
-Weltschmerz: a sadness regarding the general state of the world
-Stress, illness, or otherwise physically induced depression
-Life changes: major life changes, even good ones, have been associated with depression — NKBJ

So, I would rule out all your definitions of depression except the first and the fifth. The others are not depression -- they are what you named them: melancholy, grief, Weltschmerz, and life changes -- even good ones. Come on: Who, having gotten a better job, a raise, and an exciting new sex partner becomes depressed because of the good life changes?

-Hormone-induced moodiness: all humans go through regular chemical fluctuations that can cause brief spouts of depression — NKBJ

Hormones are measurable: What hormones are chemically fluctuating (especially in males) that would account for depression? It seems like that would be the most easily detected cause of depression, but it doesn't seem to be (unless you are counting neurotransmitters as hormones).

So: Depression, caused by stress, illness, or otherwise physically induced, inhibits an individual's ability to function.

Joshs's point is on target:

depression as a failure to adaptively cope within one's own subjective world of aims and goals. — Joshs

Failure to cope with the friction between one's private world view and public reality is a source of great stress. (Its the story of my life, soon to be made into a bad movie.)

Frankly, I don't see any value whatsoever in conditions which depress normal functioning. The hallmarks of depression -- poor memory, perseveration, lack of concentration, sleep disturbance, irritability, dysphoria, etc. etc. -- don't seem like advantages for anything.

Melancholy and weltschmerz may have philosophical or literary utility (they are useful flavoring agents) but they aren't depression, per se. Grief is usually transient, has a cause, is not abnormal, and is normally over in a year or so. 99 times out of 100, people progress through grief predictably.

Too many people are calling themselves depressed or are being diagnosed with depression and being given anti-depressants. "Too many" because there are other causes of people's dysfunction, misery, and unhappiness that have concrete causes and can at least be frankly addressed. (Whether they can be fixed is another kettle of fish.)

Bad relationships, chronic debt, poverty, brutal people, too much drinking/drugs, bad parenting, and so on leave people stressed out, angry, bitter, resentful, frazzled, maladaptive, and so forth. They don't need anti-depressants, they need relief from the causes of stress, anger, resentment, befrazzlement, bad lifestyles, ad nauseum.

They need to get their lives straightened out. They need honest reality-based guidance (if they'll take it). They need debt relief. They need to get paid more for their work. They need better transit. They need better child care facilities while they are at work. They need ready access to consistent medical care. They need more affordable decent food. They need to stop drinking so much and using so many recreational drugs. NONE OF THAT is depression.

suffering is inherently meaningful because we know what it is like to suffer and when we don't we can be glad that we are no longer suffering. — Wallows

God, it FEELS SO GOOD to stop hitting one's self on the head with a hammer.

:rofl:

My experience with depression and depressed people has convinced me that depression is nature's way of forcing a person to change certain beliefs about themselves, the world or reality at large and actions that may come from those beliefs. One has been "walking the wrong path" and nature is making one backtrack and realize they took a wrong turn somewhere.

The problem is that depression has become a taboo in western society, and this taboo is growing. The prevailing view is that there is something wrong with people who are depressed, and that they are mentally ill. They are put on medication and told that they are not responsible for the trouble they find themselves in, but that it is caused by chemical imbalances or stress. This can never be more than temporary pain relief, and one is in need of a long-term solution.

This is bad for two reasons. First, the taboo causes people to hide their thoughts from others and ultimately from themselves, severely restricting the chance of a confrontation of these thoughts which is so desperately needed. Secondly, by putting the cause of depression outside of the person, agency is further taken away from them. Not only will this discourage reflection about oneself and one's beliefs, but it will also reinforce the idea that they are not capable of changing their situation for the better. Convincing people that they are the victim of circumstance is the best way to ensure they will never change.

When depressed thoughts are left hidden, denied and ultimately unaddressed for long enough, the problem will eventually grow beyond what a person might be able to handle on their own. The pit they have dug for themselves is simply too deep. They took a wrong turn, but have gone so far down the wrong path that they cannot find the way back.

When people are depressed, they need a brutally honest confrontation with themselves. One may try to convince them that their beliefs are fallacious and causing them great psychological pain, but old beliefs die hard. In some cases there's even vanity associated with these beliefs, and they believe themselves to be as virtuous as Jesus dying on the cross, as they wither away in their own misery. This is clearly very unproductive if one is looking to better their situation. So how such a confrontation should be established is probably very complicated, but it should be the main goal of anyone who is trying to help people with depression.

Hormones are measurable: What hormones are chemically fluctuating (especially in males) that would account for depression? It seems like that would be the most easily detected cause of depression, but it doesn't seem to be (unless you are counting neurotransmitters as hormones). — Bitter Crank

I've read research suggesting that men also have hormonal fluctuations:
http://mentalfloss.com/article/82275/do-men-have-monthly-hormone-cycle
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/04/180425131906.htm
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5057046/

Not a monthly thing, like women, but daily changes in testosterone, and seasonal ones as well occur in men. Additionally changes in activity can change one's hormonal balance. (As an aside, I think there should be more research into this, as men are more prone to suicide and it could be important to see if there is a link between these two things.)

Too many people are calling themselves depressed or are being diagnosed with depression and being given anti-depressants. — Bitter Crank

I totally agree. Though I see that as an over-medicalization of types of depression that might be more easily, safely, and effectively solved through other techniques (time, talk therapy, quality time with friends, a hot cocoa).

Frankly, I don't see any value whatsoever in conditions which depress normal functioning. The hallmarks of depression -- poor memory, perseveration, lack of concentration, sleep disturbance, irritability, dysphoria, etc. etc. -- don't seem like advantages for anything. — Bitter Crank

I think there are instances when depression is valuable.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/depressions-evolutionary/

This and other articles claim that it may be a beneficial evolutionary adaptive behavior:
"Analysis requires a lot of uninterrupted thought, and depression coordinates many changes in the body to help people analyze their problems without getting distracted. "

and
"The desire for social isolation, for instance, helps the depressed person avoid situations that would require thinking about other things. Similarly, the inability to derive pleasure from sex or other activities prevents the depressed person from engaging in activities that could distract him or her from the problem. Even the loss of appetite often seen in depression could be viewed as promoting analysis because chewing and other oral activity interferes with the brain’s ability to process information."

They need to get their lives straightened out. They need honest reality-based guidance (if they'll take it). They need debt relief. They need to get paid more for their work. They need better transit. They need better child care facilities while they are at work. They need ready access to consistent medical care. They need more affordable decent food. They need to stop drinking so much and using so many recreational drugs. — Bitter Crank

All very true statements.

The prevailing view is that there is something wrong with people who are depressed, and that they are mentally ill. — Tzeentch

I agree overall. What you refer to as the prevailing view is the medical view. the medical view is that depression interferes with a person acting in the benefit of society, which from the medical perspective is true. The medical perspective rather dominates the modern world, which is the real problem.

a hot cocoa — NKBJ

At last! The missing piece of effective public health depression intervention. Hot cocoa stations (HCS) located at strategic intersections throughout the city. HCS will be an effective and inexpensive means to curb gun violence, suicide, domestic uproar, et al. Uber will deliver flagons of hot cocoa (with or without marshmallows) 24/7 free of charge in selected deplorable zip codes. Senior citizens can run the HCS for a small wage that won't affect their minimum social security, public housing, or food stamp payments.

, @et al

So, testosterone fluctuates daily and seasonally and declines after the prime years. I get that and it seems to be well researched (we've known that testosterone fluctuates and declines over time for many years). Now we would need to establish a causal (or at least correlative) relationship between seasonal variation in testosterone levels and appearance of depressive symptoms.

Depression (conservatively defined) isn't a new phenomenon, but it seems to becoming more common around the world now than it was 50 or 75 years ago. The rate of mental illness (requiring intervention) used to be posted at 10% -- this about 50 years ago. Over time it has increased to about 20% of the population. IF 1 out of 5 people are experiencing diagnosable mental illness in various countries, then something pervasive (and unnatural) is going on. What could that be?

Just an off the cuff guess would be the on-going turmoil that industrialization and aggressively managed economic policy causes in both developed and developing countries. Capitalism, more or less, would be another term for it. Capitalist (or for that matter non-capitalist) industrialization subverts individual, family, and community life to the needs of hungry enterprises. People can cope with these changes for a while (a period of years) but eventually the cost of adaptation begins to erode resilience.

Take as one small example the opioid epidemic: A very strong opioid drug was heavily marketed to physicians and was presented as not being an unusual addiction hazard. Stupid. no opiate is non-addicting. Addiction is just a feature of the way opioids work. Doctors should know that, but representatives of the Purdue Pharmaceutical Company, LP presented it as a safe drug, and doctors tend to rely on dug companies for information. Plus many doctors, being at least as venal as everybody else, enjoy the perquisites they get for generously prescribing whatever is on offer. The Sackler family which owns Purdue Pharma LP are the beneficiaries of the boom in oxycontin sales and addiction. They also make hydromorphone, oxycodone, fentanyl, codeine, and hydrocodone, MS Contin, Oxycontin, and Ryzolt (time release Tramadol, an opiate). They also make iodine-based surgical disinfectant washes, laxatives, and -- humanitarian of the year award -- gluten-free stool softeners.

I don't have anything against opiates: When used with caution they are effective for relief of moderate to severe pain. What opiates are not good for is long-term use, where addiction is practically guaranteed. Opiate addiction is really not good for the body, especially when the drug of choice is not readily available. If one could buy opiates over the counter, addiction would still be a bad thing but it might result in less socially destructive dysfunctional behavior practically required to maintain a supply.

Anyway, the Sackler family drove the sales of its narcotic products to maximize profits for themselves with enormously negative consequences for millions of people, directly and indirectly. They are an egregious example, but not fundamentally different than what most wealthy corporate owners are willing to do. The Koch brothers are another egregious example, but so are the owners of Shell, Exxon, Rio Tinto, Amazon, Facebook, et al.

Poverty, addiction, social disruption, over-work, naked exploitation, zero free amenities (like parks, clean swimming beaches, etc.), no time and place for good sex, good food, nice music (however defined--Mozart for me, rap for you)--add very abrasive carborundum grit to the grind of already unsatisfactory life and wear people down to the point they can no longer cope effectively.

I guess it's a matter of perspective. Some people are of the opinion that the problem of depression is of the mind (internal) and others say its the circumstances (external).

This questions the very rationale of treating the depressed.

As you say, one of the causes of depression is our economic system and how it has impacted our social existence. This is an external factor of circumstances and needs to be addressed if depression is to be managed successfully. Makes me think that many bloody revolutions have been ignited by the melancholic.

The current psychiatric method of treating depression seems to be just an ad-interim measure - staving off the serious consequences of depression - without any attempt to correct the larger causative social ills.

Interesting.

many bloody revolutions have been ignited by the melancholic. — TheMadFool

Or by the very pissed off.

The current psychiatric method of treating depression seems to be just an ad-interim measure - staving off the serious consequences of depression - — TheMadFool

True, because that is what is possible for a psychiatrist and a patient given the present conditions.

without any attempt to correct the larger causative social ills. — TheMadFool

The larger, causative social ills are going to require a revolution (literally, if not figuratively) to resolve. Who is going to do this? Everybody is going to do it because the problems are that big, or it isn't going to happen at all.

The larger, causative social ills are going to require a revolution (literally, if not figuratively) to resolve. Who is going to do this? Everybody is going to do it because the problems are that big, or it isn't going to happen at all. — Bitter Crank

Here is a large crux of the situation, perhaps. What is this 8 hour work day? Who does it really benefit? This is circular reasoning. We have simply designed our lives around it, and then post-facto "called it good and necessary". Is it? What happens if we simply took two hours off the average US citizen's workday? What exactly are we doing here anyways?

But BC, you know that I think that dissatisfaction is already built into the human equation, right? Let us look at "love" or less romantically, simply seeking companions/mates. The human pursuit of mates itself causes drama galore. Humans don't make it easy on themselves, even on the best of circumstances. Somehow, a supposed key component of human social happiness is hopelessly flawed. We do it to ourselves, but we cannot help it.

Look at our material lives- run by the economic hand of doom annoyance. We create technology that must constantly be maintained, taught, re-taught, etc. etc. Medical and emergency services are under the tyranny of people's biological/health needs. People with long-term conditions need long-term help. This causes doctors and nurses to work non-stop...this causes the companies that support them to work non-stop.. and the companies that help those companies, etc. etc. Our human wants and needs, force each other's hands in a big game of "fuck you too". We force each other to be slaves to each other.. Maybe 8 hours is something we can't work past. Maybe horrible managers are what's needed to "get things done around here!" Maybe we simply can't move past the fact that we are forced to do things based on the circumstances of others- mainly their wants and needs impinging on your wants and needs. There is no good solution other than not existing or causing others not to exist.

Ultimately, BC, my two questions are:
1) Do you think society can really get past its current social state, and how?
2) Why would you not think that dissatisfaction is baked into the circumstances of the human condition, despite any external economic or social circumstances?

Some people are of the opinion that the problem of depression is of the mind (internal) and others say its the circumstances (external) — TheMadFool

And some see it as often a complex combination of the two.

Per Psychology Today, for example, "A depressive disorder is not a passing blue mood but rather persistent feelings of sadness and worthlessness and a lack of desire to engage in formerly pleasurable activities."

I don't know what the benefit would be of persistent feelings of sadness and worthlessness and a lack of desire to engage in formerly pleasurable activities.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/depressions-evolutionary/

The introduction to that is ridiculous: "But the brain plays crucial roles in promoting survival and reproduction, so the pressures of evolution should have left our brains resistant to such high rates of malfunction. Mental disorders should generally be rare — why isn’t depression?"

For one, depression doesn't necessarily amount to not being able to have sex. Depressed people may have less interest in sex or take less pleasure from it, but that doesn't mean they don't have sex (and I've had sex with women who were receiving treatment for depression). It only takes one time to have offspring, which means that there's no tendency for it to be deselected evolutionarily.

Re the rest of the article, I'd have to look at the studies they're referring to. Some of that may have merit.

But they also seem to be promoting the idea that depression is caused by particular other sociological or psychological issues, rather than being caused by brain states where the sociological or psychological explanations are rather ad hoc, as a way to rationalize the conscious component of those brain states.

You're missing the point.

Mild depressive states are evolutionarily advantageous because they help you problem-solve sans distractions.

that depression is nature's way of forcing a person to change certain beliefs about themselves, the world or reality at large and actions that may come from those beliefs. One has been "walking the wrong path" and nature is making one backtrack and realize they took a wrong turn somewhere. — Tzeentch

holy fucking shit that is some deep shit. Like wow. and it applies to myself because I am mindlessly going to college because my parents want me to even though I am paying for it,