Not true. I'm able to develop other ways to make money. I'm not trapped by one job, nor am I stuck making the exact same amount as everyone else. I see this as very wrong.And what do you think corporations are doing if not micromanaging people in a corporate system? — Bitter Crank
So your boss is a jerk, he doesn't pay you enough, and this is the government's fault?
Why don't you keep the blame where you laid it: on your boss's doorstep? He's the one deciding to underpay you and maybe harass you to boot.
For some odd reason unknown to me you would prefer to blame non-existent socialism for your problems instead of a harsh, capitalist system which doesn't give a shit about you. — Bitter Crank
You might argue with Marx's proposed solution to the woes of capitalism. You can certainly argue with practical communism, Marxism, Leninism, Maoism etc. But it's not so easy to disagree with his analysis. — Txastopher
Unwilling? Or unable?
Here is a recent interchange I had on Twitter:
Tweeter 1: The Tories said privatisation of the railways would give us "better, more efficient and cheaper trains". Today rail fares go up by 3.1% while punctuality is at a 12-year low. Meanwhile in Luxembourg they are making all public transport free from 2019.
Tweeter 2: Another leftie after free stuff.
Pattern-chaser: Free? We all pay. That's the point of socialism: from each according to their means, and to each (or all) according to their (our) needs. And we share the cost. It's not free, it's mutual care. Love thy neighbour?
This offers an alternative perspective to your own. I can't guarantee it's more accurate, although it seems so to me. — Pattern-chaser
Scandinavian countries aren't socialist, they are capitalist. Period. — ssu
Actually yes.These programs are completely compatible with capitalism as it is understood by US conservatives? — boethius
These programs are completely compatible with capitalism as it is understood by US conservatives?
— boethius
Actually yes. — ssu
Hence the argument has to be taken to a country that actually Americans don't know in order to create this idea that the Bernie type socialism is bad and that social welfare programs are incompatible with an economy based on free market capitalism. Yes, Europe is doomed. — ssu
His [Marx's] findings are unpractical and fantasy. The resulting attempts of such practice show increased death rates. If one cannot practice such ideology then it is a bad ideology. — Waya
Basically Bernie Sanders is close to European style social-democracy, which accepts the capitalist system. This social democratic view limits the actions of the government to a confined space of taxation, welfare programs and some limited role of the government in the economy, but doesn't truly challenge the private ownership of capital.And furthermore, what you call "Bernie type socialism" is actually correctly labeled capitalism? — boethius
In the last sentence lies the crucial point: It's not a path to socialist tyranny. The welfare programs aren't a stepping stone to something larger. The Nordic model starts from the basic understanding that government programs are paid by tax revenue and because it's the private sector's job to create this tax revenue, the private sector and the capitalist system is basically left alone. This fight is about the level of taxation etc. with the right. True socialism (in my view) starts from the idea that government can and indeed it is it's role is to own the industries and services in the economy and hence make the revenues required by itself.to be clear, the point of my comments is to point out that US libertarian or conservative proponents can't in one context claim Scandinavia is an example of capitalism succeeding, and in another context argue that things like universal health care, free university, strong social net, large and powerful unions, that are features of Scandinavian government, are a path to socialist tyranny. — boethius
In the last sentence lies the crucial point: It's not a path to socialist tyranny. The welfare programs aren't a stepping stone to something larger. The Nordic model starts from the basic understanding that government programs are paid by tax revenue and because it's the private sector's job to create this tax revenue, the private sector and the capitalist system is basically left alone. — ssu
True socialism (in my view) starts from the idea that government can and indeed it is it's role to own the industries and hence make the revenues required by itself. — ssu
Of course. There naturally is a political struggle between the right and the left in every Nordic country. But my emphasis is in that there are broad areas that are left alone also.he government doesn't own (much) of the private sector, yes, but everything is very much regulated, so I wouldn't say it "leaves it alone". — boethius
I agree.I would argue that the broad usage of socialism in the US today is to refer to social programs; to which the conservatives would cry "that's socialism!", so after trying and failing to educate on the difference of social democracy and social programs and whatever "socialism" is loaded with, Bernie Sanders decided to just own the term, so now it's evolving to mean what Sanders is referring to (in many, certainly not all contexts), which we agree is basically the Scandinavian style social programs. — boethius
Of course. There naturally is a political struggle between the right and the left in every Nordic country. But my emphasis is in that there are broad areas that are left alone also. — ssu
I agree.
It is very important to understand the discourse and it's political environment, the context what is referred to when talking about "socialism" or the right and the left. One example is that I assume that many Trump supporters don't know that Angela Merkel is actually a conservative and a right-winger. — ssu
This is so true. In fact it's great to talk about the issue with Finns who have moved or been in the US. Many fall in love with the libertarian side of the US. The simple fact is that individual rights, even if they basically do exist here too, aren't on the forefront of the political narrative. A lot of people would find the US far better than they now think if only they would have been there. As one Finn who had moved to Florida noted to me: it's absolutely great when you have a job and you don't get ill. I personally remember nearly 40 years ago as a little boy the huge contrast between Finland and Seattle. Now the Supermarkets and television in Finland are similar as they were already in the US back then, but 40 years ago Finland was quite different.What also can sometimes cause confusion is that Scandinavian's have often never been to the US and never interacted with US libertarian or free-market ideology. — boethius
100% true. The fact is that European conservatives and right-wingers would be surely labeled RINO's in the US. They would be basically right-wing democrats or centrist republicans.Ideologically, the extreme-right in Europe is only in step with the right in the US on topics like immigration and nationalism and maintaining or strengthening whatever racist institutions are around (which Europe certainly has). As far as I know, there is no right wing party with any significant support that has abolishing healthcare and public education and public transport as a core part of their platform. — boethius
This is one of the things people should understand especially when they hear about the "far right" in Europe.For instance, the True Finns make it a point to say they aren't against the principle of the welfare state; likewise the Front Nationale in France, just that only Finns/French should be benefiting. Even "corporate friendliness" is not an extreme right-wing thing (as EU corporations generally like the existence of the EU and don't like racism and getting tied to Neo-Nazism, directly or indirectly; so I don't see the extreme-right in Europe viewing the very wealthy or multinational corporations as natural or likely allies; which is to say the right in the EU and US style libertarians have very little ideological overlap — boethius
Reductio ad Hitlerum. It may help the discussion to consider that term and have a little chuckle at this: — I like sushi
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/03/anthropocene-capitalism-climate-change/?fbclid=IwAR1FJ9VcytY5vs0hgjC1EzqObkOZlBvKdCbQD6sdbVI0CilvwAIIm415iNcThe 19 million inhabitants of New York State alone consume more energy than the 900 million inhabitants of sub-Saharan Africa. The difference in energy consumption between a subsistence pastoralist in the Sahel and an average Canadian may easily be larger than 1,000-fold — and that is an average Canadian, not the owner of five houses, three SUVs, and a private airplane.
Too much of a change, or moving the discussion on? — unenlightened
Of course, there are many other issues at play in comparing first world and sub-Saharan African energy usages. Do you find this disparity congruent with your expectations of capitalism as it is, incongruent, or do you find other factors more important? — boethius
The UK, where I live, is a relatively crowded place, and relatively wealthy place. But it is not an entirely pleasant place to live. The man-made environment is ugly, noisy, polluted, stressful, unhealthy, and inconvenient. — Unenlightened
That’s peculiar? I visited last year and found it to be quite magnificent, beautiful, quiet, efficient and clean. — I like sushi
There's a lesson in these comparisons:Of course, there are many other issues at play in comparing first world and sub-Saharan African energy usages. Do you find this disparity congruent with your expectations of capitalism as it is, incongruent, or do you find other factors more important? — boethius
Ah yes, the nice things. Dental hygiene is often forgotten!What is important is, for sure, to have modern medicine and dentistry, to have good communications, to have food and shelter, security, and a pleasant environment. — unenlightened
Oh those irresponsible unethical wily capitalists!Now the problem at the moment is that production is not making itself responsible for cleaning its own mess plastic in the sea, fumes in the city, pesticides in the countryside, CO2 in the atmosphere ... and if a rule is made here, industry will go elsewhere where there is no rule, because if one doesn't a competitor will. This is the industrial tragedy of the commons. — unenlightened
So unenlightened, is that really what industry gives to the Third World? Environmental problems? Sweatshops? Nothing else? How do you add up these two parts of your commentary? — ssu
It's very hard to get away from the drone of traffic, and in most of the cities the air pollution is bad. Public transport is poor, and to be a pedestrian or cyclist in the city is dangerous and unpleasant. — Unenlightened
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