So, how is intent shaped and formed to become a goal? — Wallows

That's a good question, and I'm sure it deserves a very complex answer. But I think the answer is unknown so you probably won't get much of an answer at all.

Just to make sure I am not hearing the question incorrectly, is the phrase " undirected intentionality" a part of some grammatical algebra that I am unaware of? I am pretty handy up to the middle of the twentieth century but it gets pretty hit and miss after that.

It is a term I invented for the sake of discussion. Any thoughts about it?

So, how is intent shaped and formed to become a goal? — Wallows

Intent is a goal. What you intend is the goal you have in mind.

Your willpower would the magnitude of the goal in your mind and how it determines your actions over other actions for other goals that you have in mind.

I think actually intent itself is a motivation caused by desire towards an objective, and a goal is the result of achieving that objective.

Intent is a goal. What you intend is the goal you have in mind. — Harry Hindu

Intent seems separate from a goal. For example, intent to do harm is something separate from a goal? More like a motivation or emotion?

I think actually intent itself is a motivation caused by desire towards an objective, and a goal is the result of achieving that objective. — ernestm

What about if that intent is undirected? Then do we count it as a desire or some form of willpower?

Intent to do harm is the goal to do harm.

Sometimes what you intended isnt what happens. You didn't intend to cause harm. It wasn't your goal to cause harm. Intent and goals are predictions. You didnt predict that your action would cause harm. We can use these words interchangeably without any meaning anything different.

What about if that intent is undirected? Then do we count it as a desire or some form of willpower? — Wallows

I dont think most people understand their own desires, and so are not actually capable of acting in a direct manner, but that could rightfully considered presumptuous of me )

What if the intent is undirected? I am depressed and I want to get better but don't know how to. Then what?

Oh I see. Well one could say all intents are misdirected. Thats the Zen approach )

What do you mean that all intents are misdirected? It would seem to me that intent without a goal is un/misdirected? How do you correct that feature of intentionality?

in some cases, such as taoist and zen thought, the mistake is acting with intent at all. In Taoism it is because the world in which we live is so chaotic as to be essentially random, so any effort to force it in any one direction is futile. In zen the mistake is seen as being acting based upon desire, as fulfillment of desire does not result in fulfillment of the self, and therefore, acting in interest of the self's own intent results in lack of satisfaction.

in some cases, such as taoist and zen thought, the mistake is acting with intent at all. In Taoism it is because the world in which we live is so chaotic as to be essentially random, so any effort to force it in any one direction is futile. In zen the mistake is seen as being acting based upon desire, as fulfillment of desire does not result in fulfillment of the self, and therefore, acting in interest of the self's own intent results in lack of satisfaction. — ernestm

So, is it desire that's the issue here, or intent? I never really knew how to differentiate Buddhism from Zen or Taoism.

Yes, it is the motivation by desire on which that the eastern branches of thought focus. Here is a rather extensive depiction of the relations in successive actions of mind.

https://www.yofiel.com/images/nidana.jpeg

Yes, it is the motivation by desire on which that the eastern branches of thought focus. — ernestm

So, it's not only intent? What comes first, desire, then intent, yes?

Then what is intent (back to square one)?

yes desire motivates intent. Im sorry but I ran out of brain sugar and I have to go get some food )

Lacking "the willpower to get better" may not be a helpful way to frame the matter. It separates intention from agency in terms that are self defeating. The desire to change is resisted by the structure that keeps recurring. Something new has to be introduced for the structure to change. The new isn't a war upon the old, it replaces a portion of it.

I agree with M.J. Mahoney in his Constructive Psychotherapy where he says:

"Ongoing competitions in development are neither "won" nor "lost" in reference to allegedly absolute criteria. Some competitors (i.e., impulses of activity) selected to assume temporary positions in the "driver seat" of the body. The old patterns remain as contenders, and they may "win" occasional episodes of ascendancy in future situations. Old habits are not eliminated completely, but they can be displaced by new ones."

Lacking "the willpower to get better" may not be a helpful way to frame the matter. It separates intention from agency in terms that are self defeating. — Valentinus

How does it separate intention from an agency? I don't understand where the divisions in the mind are taking place?

If the intention is "undirected" because of a lack willpower, you are proposing a difference between the telos being sought and the energy or power necessary for it to become actual. I thought I was describing your model before offering an alternative.

If the intention is "undirected" because of a lack willpower, you are proposing a difference between the telos being sought and the energy or power necessary for it to become actual. I thought I was describing your model before offering an alternative. — Valentinus

No, it's not necessarily a lack of willpower. It can be just the case that the world of nature is preventing it from being realized. But, in regards to depression, the intent is to achieve remission, therefore I'm not sure if willpower can have anything to do with remission from depression. It seems like one of those cases where it's a no win situation and has to be endured until something external changes? Obviously, one can be supremely frustrated about the whole predicament, and hence that is a secondary undirected intentional aspect of being depressed, yes? A third aspect of this whole issue is the realization that one is powerless in the face of crippling depression if pharmacology and therapy don't help. This is when things become dire, and the intent turns against itself and suicide is thought as a viable option?

Does that sound right?

It sounds like a self-fulfilling prophecy.
In any case, you are still employing a division between intention and "power." Now your agency is even more divided than in your first formulation.

Do you have any thoughts regarding my alternative?

It sounds like a self-fulfilling prophecy. — Valentinus

Very much so. Depression itself isn't unbearable. It's the thought loop and feeling of powerlessness with respect to it that is the source of frustration. Eventually you just learn to accept it and cope with it in my opinion.

Do you have any thoughts regarding my alternative? — Valentinus

Could you repeat it in different words. I'm not sure if I understood correctly the first time.

Thank you.

Let's talk about the thought loop. If you were to be an agent, isn't that what you would want to change?

Yes. I would want to change that. But, how?

A lot of what keeps repeating are habits. As an agent, the only degree of freedom available is the introduction of new ones.

Habits are distinct from intent. So, how does habit relate to undirected intentionality?

Your model does not permit an effective agent, it only defends a powerless one.

What if the intent is undirected? I am depressed and I want to get better but don't know how to. Then what? — Wallows

This is a good question.

Your ultimate intent/goal would be to get better. How you go about achieving would be several sub-goals. I can't think of a case where you wouldn't know, or at least have an idea of what to try, to get better. And if you didn't try to get better, then could you really say that you intended to get better? What do intents do? What makes an intent, an intent?

I think the source of depression is either mental/neurological, or genetic. Sometimes you can work yourself into a bout of depression just by thinking certain thoughts. Controlling the contents of your mind and finding other things to grab your attention can help in certain cases.

What is intent? How much of intent is linked with willpower? Willpower seems like an active process, where intent can be passive.

The object of an intent is a goal, and to intend to do something is to plan or decide to actively work toward that goal, at least that's my understanding. I don't see how intent can be passive... it can be unconscious in the sense that you may not be aware that a part of you intends to do something, but it always involves a decision of action to complete a goal

Willpower is something different, it's the capacity to consciously direct actions and behavior in order to complete an explicit goal. It's linked to the concept of self control and seems distinct from intent in that intent is not a capacity and willpower isn't linked to an explicit or specific goal.

My main question is about undirected intentionality. These seem to be the passive aspect of willpower, like having a goal in the back of one's mind and working towards it.

For example, a deep mood that can be depression means that someone lacks the willpower to get better. I will stipulate here that this is 'undirected intentionality'.

So, how is intent shaped and formed to become a goal?

The bold sounds more like an unconscious intention verses a willpower. I still don't understand how an intention can be undirected since it seems by definition to always be directed toward the completion of a goal.