• Walter Pound
    122
    God is understood to be changeless, and therefore timeless, but God is also understood to be the creator of time.

    If God creates the physical world along with time, then God experiences a change - from existing alone to existing along with time.

    Can anyone explain how God is the creator of time and remains changeless?
  • Wallows
    6.8k
    Dimensionality.

    God exists as an independent dimension above all others. S/he/It encompasses all other dimensions, such as space and time.
  • Devans99
    758
    God exists as an independent dimension above all others. S/he/It encompasses all other dimensions, such as space and timeWallows

    Interesting answer, can you expand?

    I think God is needed to explain the state of the universe but I have difficulties fitting him into any viable model of the universe. Would you have God sharing our time dimension or does he have his own time dimension? Or if you have God as timeless, how does he manage to change things (like creating universes)?
  • Apey
    3
    How can we Explain something who created us ?
  • TWI
    151
    So called 'God' could just be imagining the world and universe along with the concept of time, therefore everything would be part of God, not separate. It wouldn't have created 'us' as there would be no us (or them)
  • Number2018
    200
    God is understood to be changeless, and therefore timeless, but God is also understood to be the creator of time.

    If God creates the physical world along with time, then God experiences a change - from existing alone to existing along with time.
    Walter Pound
    When we think of time, we apply the synthetic principle of grasping ceaseless changing – one needs to grasp the changes in the thought, to exit their flow for some instant. Similar thinking has been exercised for understanding the essence of God.
    Probably, the idea of universal God coexists with the notion of time.
  • Harry Hindu
    1.6k
    God is understood to be changeless, and therefore timeless, but God is also understood to be the creator of time.

    If God creates the physical world along with time, then God experiences a change - from existing alone to existing along with time.

    Can anyone explain how God is the creator of time and remains changeless?
    Walter Pound
    It's not just when it creates, but when it thinks. If god thinks (has a mind), its thoughts change.


    Dimensionality.

    God exists as an independent dimension above all others. S/he/It encompasses all other dimensions, such as space and time.
    Wallows
    There is more than one dimension, so back to polytheism?

    If "god" were a dimension, then why call it "god" and not just "dimension"?
  • BrianW
    640
    Can anyone explain how God is the creator of time and remains changeless?Walter Pound

    There's an idea that eternal and infinite means existing outside of the frames of space and time as opposed to existing comprehensively within the full spectrum of space and time. The latter would still imply God is limited by space and time thus making Him relative. So, if by God is meant absoluteness, then God becomes such as is untouched by the influence of space and time.

    Unfortunately, science does not have a concept of anything beyond space and time.
  • Wallows
    6.8k
    If "god" were a dimension, then why call it "god" and not just "dimension"?Harry Hindu

    I generally agree with this. I see nothing fruitful from thinking God is in the sky somewhere.

    I'd call it pantheism if I were hard pressed.
  • Noah Te Stroete
    575
    Why is everyone so hung up on the canonical Judeo-Christian attributes given to what THEY call “God”. Can’t we think for ourselves? Or at least synthesize conceptions of God from all religions and philosophies?
  • Wallows
    6.8k
    Interesting answer, can you expand?Devans99

    What do you want me to expand on?
  • Devans99
    758


    Would you have God sharing our time dimension or does he have his own time dimension?

    Or if you have God as timeless, how does he manage to change things (like creating universes)?
  • Wallows
    6.8k


    Well the entire scope of dimensionality is the same wrt. to God. It's up-down not bottom-up.
  • Noah Te Stroete
    575
    I would say that what I refer to as “God” is the causal phenomenon that gives dead matter life and consciousness in higher order beings. I’m not interested in what caused the universe wrt gods. Unless you are talking about a quantum fluctuation that inflated into a universe, or a 4-dimensional black hole that spawned the universe, then I am not interested in what caused the universe. It’s science’s domain to explain how the universe began, not religion or “proofs” of God.
  • Walter Pound
    122
    https://youtu.be/5P6dQy9NmM4

    This video and some of its comments sparked my curiousity.
  • Walter Pound
    122
    It's not just when it creates, but when it thinks. If god thinks (has a mind), its thoughts change.Harry Hindu

    Also, in most faiths, God interacts with humans and this would seem to suggest a God that is in time; consider the Christian doctrine of the virgin birth or the second coming of Christ, are all these "timeless" actions? It would be very strange to suggest so...
  • Banno
    4.2k
    You expect talk of god to make sense? Not going to happen.
  • Walter Pound
    122
    Well, I imagine that some theistic philosopher has tried to make sense of it and I was curious to know how god remains changeless if god also creates time.
  • Banno
    4.2k
    Of course god is outside of time. He always had created time, and hence was not changed by it...
  • Walter Pound
    122
    He always had created time, and hence was not changed by it...Banno

    If God creates time and even if he always in the state of creating time, then God is eternally creating time.

    Just like a person who is eternally creating a sand castle is eternally changing so too is God if God eternally creates time.
  • Banno
    4.2k
    OK, you win. the notion of god is absurd.
  • Devans99
    758
    the notion of god is absurd.Banno

    The traditional notion of God is absurd. I wonder why we spend so long discussing the traditional notion of God as defined in ancient religious texts. The older something is, the farther it is from the truth.

    Anyhow, I think the concept of a changeless God is workable if you take the eternalist viewpoint. If we make God eternal outside of time and make time part of God then God never changes (from a 4d space time perspective God is completely static).
  • Harry Hindu
    1.6k
    Again, if God has a mind, then God changes. If god doesn't have a mind, then why call it God? It would just be some mindless existant, no different than the universe itself.

    If God has causal power then God is part of causation and exists in time. It can't exist outside of it because it operates within it.
  • Walter Pound
    122

    Well, I figure that this is how they will respond to your objection: God's thoughts are eternal and unchanging and therefore timeless; all of God's thoughts are not occurring in time in the way our thoughts occur, but instead they have always been.

    However, even this response doesn't make sense if God is the creator of time. The very act of creating space and time, ex nihilo, is a change; even if God is eternally creating time and space, then God should be described not as unchanging, but as eternally changing.

    However, this objection would not explain why God chooses to remain timeless as opposed to entering in time. It doesn't sound like a logical contradiction to say that a timeless being can enter into time so if God is omnipotent, then the issue remains: why is God timeless instead of temporal?

    A changeless thing would be like numbers in mathematical Platonism. Numbers literally do nothing and thus are timeless in the fullest sense of the word, but God is not timeless in the way numbers are in mathematical Platonism so it is a weird description to call God changeless if God is eternally creating time and space.
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    5k
    If God creates time and even if he always in the state of creating time, then God is eternally creating time.Walter Pound

    Isn't there a new moment of time created at each instant as time passes?
  • Rank Amateur
    922
    God is understood to be changeless, and therefore timeless, but God is also understood to be the creator of time.Walter Pound

    God exists as an independent dimension above all othersWallows

    I think God is needed to explain the state of the universe but I have difficulties fitting him into any viable model of the universe. Would you have God sharing our time dimension or does he have his own time dimension? Or if you have God as timeless, how does he manage to change things (like creating universes)?Devans99

    There's an idea that eternal and infinite means existing outside of the frames of space and time as opposed to existing comprehensively within the full spectrum of space and time. The latter would still imply God is limited by space and time thus making Him relative. So, if by God is meant absoluteness, then God becomes such as is untouched by the influence of space and time.BrianW

    and a few others.


    I am skeptical that we as human beings can say anything at all of value about the nature of "God" . I know of no reasonable basis to believe that we poses the tools or capabilities to understand such a thing as what "God" can or can't do, be or not be, think or not think. It could well be no more accurate than a puppy's explanation of relativity.
  • TWI
    151
    It's all make-believe.

    Made by God that is.

    Like the events in a dream are make-believe (made by the dreamer) so everything, other than God the dreamer, is make-believe.
  • BrianW
    640
    I am skeptical that we as human beings can say anything at all of value about the nature of "God" . I know of no reasonable basis to believe that we poses the tools or capabilities to understand such a thing as what "God" can or can't do, be or not be, think or not think. It could well be no more accurate than a puppy's explanation of relativity.Rank Amateur

    I think because we understand relativity, we stand in good measure to develop a concept of 'not relative' or absolute. My point is that, if by God is meant that which is 'not relative', then, we should reject the limits of space and time as well.
  • Nils Loc
    407
    I like Mircea Eliade's metamyth of the eternal return (though I'm not conveying his theory but borrowing bits of his structure).

    Archaic time is circular. Periodic regularity of the world's performance is reflected in the behaviors of human kind.

    To perform a ritual (to imitate the order of the universe) is to hold the universe together as it appears in a religious way.

    This is to make philosophy religious (imbue its rituals with value by maintaining them). If we don't voluntarily perform the rituals of reason according to philosophic laws or sensibilities, ie. the arduous (or fun) task of mediating reason cooperatively by studying exemplars and the means of exemplars, they will die.

    Reason by its (in)numerable modes coronates the philosopher and gives life (spirit) to the endeavor. The ability to reason endows the philosopher with value in the eyes of his peers. When you show that you can perform well you are coronated, but there are never ending levels to this (like martial art belts).

    What does this have to do with God?

    Nothing... as Black Belting Banno said, (the notion of) God is absurd.

    Repeat the Bannonian mantra...

    We must distill out the absurdity and live only the in the purity of a courteous surety.
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