• ssu
    1.2k
    Actually science is naturally agnosticAnaxagoras

    Or our subjective interpretation would be so... because it (science) doesn't answer these kind of questions.

    After all, how can an objective methodology give answers to something that is logically and rationally a subjective question?

    An answer to how the World is doesn't give any answer how we should live. Religion answers to moral and ethical questions typically using the dichotomy of good and evil. If one has read actually what religions teach that is. And as I said, science or using the scientific method doesn't give answers to this. That there is or isn't a black hole in the center of our galaxy isn't a question about morality. How you live your life in a good way is a question about ethics and morality.

    I personally find it whimsically naive to think that science destroys religion and would make us atheists, because in religions there typically is an old explanation of how the World came to be. When science has proven that this cannot be taken literally as a fact, the atheists rejoice! Or that evolution doesn't need a God. Well, mathematics and chemistry don't need a divine entity either, because they study totally different questions.

    Have Nietzsche's fears come true? I don't think so.
  • Nasir Shuja
    92
    Uh science is a method of investigation not a dogma. I don't get you nor am I going to read all this.. what's your point dude.
  • Nasir Shuja
    92
    Oh wow wrong thread? IDK. Sorry
  • Jake
    1.4k
    For Christianity is not a formula which makes everything clear, but the radical submission of myself to an incomprehensible Mystery Who has revealed Himself as ineffable love.Rank Amateur

    Thanks Rank, I'm just back on the forum myself.

    That's a great quote, thanks for sharing it. A couple thoughts in reply...

    First, and this takes us back towards science, I'm wondering if you are familiar with the drug DMT? Here's an introductory documentary of a research study which you might find interesting:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtT6Xkk-kzk

    I bring it up here because the test subjects in this study reported visiting another realm which felt even more real to them than our everyday experience, and they attempted to describe this incomprehensible realm as being saturated with a profound indescribable love.

    What was interesting to me is that this was a scientific study that had nothing to do with religion, and yet very similar to religion kinds of descriptions emerged from it.

    Another thing I liked about it is that the study was experience based instead of theory based. I suspect that philosophy (and thus most of theology) is not really the appropriate channel for exploring such things. It's not so much that this or that idea is right or wrong, but that ideas in general aren't really the right medium for such investigations.

    The quote you shared above suggests as much, and as you know I'm fond of quoting the Apostle John who said with brilliant conciseness "God is love".

    Language is so limiting. Any words we choose immediately serve to shove the subject in to some little box. This becomes problematic when the phenomena we are attempting to explore is defined as being beyond all division.

    Anyway, explore the documentary linked above if you have time, and aren't already familiar with the topic. It's not at all Catholic, but explores similar issues from another direction.
  • Jake
    1.4k
    Actually science is naturally agnosticAnaxagoras

    I hear what you're saying and agree.

    I'll just add my usual rant that science, and our relationship with science, are two very different things. The later can not be described as being agnostic.
  • S
    10.2k
    First, and this takes us back towards science, I'm wondering if you are familiar with the drug DMT? Here's an introductory documentary of a research study which you might find interesting:

    I bring it up here because the test subjects in this study reported visiting another realm which felt even more real to them than our everyday experience, and they attempted to describe this incomprehensible realm as being saturated with a profound indescribable love.
    Jake

    I hate it when people use drugs to make a point like that, especially when they pretend they're being scientific. It's about as scientific as conducting a survey in a madhouse. Only a fool would take the results seriously.

    You feel all kinds of things, and have all kinds of thoughts, and all kinds of strange experiences when you're on powerful drugs like that. You're also more prone to come out with stupid shit like, "I've just seen God!", which a mate of mine once said after taking ketamine, only to feel dumb and embarrassed about ten minutes later, taking back what he had said.

    Do you know what I got from ketamine? When you take enough of it, the dizzy, noxious feeling is nothing. I felt like I had brain damage, and was stuck like that for what seemed like a really long time, with very diminished ability to communicate.

    There was a guy in another discussion who was trying to argue that everything is appearance, and remarked that unless you had taken LSD, you wouldn't truly understand. Which is a load of codswallop of course, because I have taken LSD, not that it really matters, and I still strongly disagree with him about everything being only appearance.

    It's important not to lose your good sense - presuming you had good sense to begin with - about these experiences of taking strong drugs, tempting as it can be to reach fantastical conclusions.

    "The world is made of rainbows!", "I've seen God!", "There's another realm!". No, you just took drugs and had a brain fart. Pull yourself together.

    I know, I know: you'll dismiss what I've said because I'm clever and belong on Facebook. I don't talk enough nonsense to be a prestigious philosophy-type who rightfully belongs on a forum like this. Sorry about that.
  • Jake
    1.4k
    I know, I know: you'll dismiss what I've said because I'm clever and belong on Facebook.S

    Hey, whaddya know, you're finally right about something! Congratulations!
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