• Pattern-chaser
    Returning to the original sub-thread:
    Where in the scientific space-time universe is "two"? — Pattern-chaser

    Two (or any other number) is a very specific and distinct condition and relation in the universe (or in reality). We could call it by any other name but the exact significance of that identity can never alter. I think numerical values exist because, otherwise, it would be impossible to account for relativity or the many aspects of reality.

    Impossible to account for? Impossible to/for who? Humans, of course. The universe has no need for numbers, which is lucky because they don't exist in the space-time universe.

    But numbers sure as Hell do exist, just as Harry Potter does. In the minds of humans. We created them. Harry we made to entertain us, and he does so admirably. Numbers we made to help us describe the space-time universe. Because we can't grok the universe in one piece, as it really is, we split it up into smaller and smaller parts until we stand a chance of the merest whiff of understanding. It's what we do, because we have no choice. But what we do is out of necessity, and it has no logical or rational justification other than that: we have no choice. Numbers help us describe the universe, but they are not part of the universe.

    As for these 'specific and distinct condition and relations', these too are human inventions. The universe is what it is, and it is able to do what it does with none of this human baggage you are dragging into the mix. Some parts of the universe were attracted to one another billions of years before Newton conceived of "gravity". The attraction the universe just does, all on its own, because it cannot do otherwise. But it doesn't need 'gravity' to do it. It's us who need 'gravity', because without it we cannot clarify or describe our understandings to ourselves or to one another.
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