• Ikolos
    34
    PRESENTATION

    First, I want to thank you everyone who would help me in this discussion to deepen my knowledge about this topic.

    Second I inform you that I am not a native English speaker, nor I am particularly skilled in writing. Thus, I both apologize for errors that may come and ask for corrections.

    This said, I am going to present immediately an argument by Kant, concerning the beginning of knowledge.

    I will cite from the Cambridge Edition of the Critique of Pure Reason(CPR) by Guyer and Wood.

    OPENING ARGUMENT IN THE AESTETHICS

    «There is no doubt whatever that all our cognition begins with experi­ ence; for how else should the cognitive faculty be awakened into exer­ cise if not through objects that stimulate our senses and in part themselves produce representations, in part bring the activity of our un­ derstanding into motion to compare these, to connect or separate them, and thus to work up the raw material of sensible impressions into a cognition of objects that is called experience?7 As far as time is con­ cerned, then, no cognition in us precedes experience, and with experi­ ence every cognition begins.» p.136

    This argument may be stated as follows. Someone maybe disagree: I am open to receive critics and/or modification about this interpretation. This would require, however: 1indicate where my error is and why 2 an alternative purpose.

    A

    If our cognitive faculty is awakened, then there is a beginning of knowledge.

    But our cognitive faculty is awakened.

    THEN

    There is a beginning of knowledge.

    B

    If our cognitive faculty is awakened, then it is so by the object of senses or otherwise.

    Our cognitive faculty is awakened.

    Then by object of senses or otherwise.

    Not otherwise.

    THEN

    Our cognitive faculty is awakened by object of senses.

    C

    Definition: the sensitive type of object is experience.

    Definition: The awakening of a cognitive faculty, insofar as it produces, effectively, cognitions, is a beginning of knowledge.(This modify the first premiss in A: from an implication to an equivalence)

    THUS

    All our cognitions begins with experience.

    FINIS

    Now, there is an interesting restriction just after:

    «As far as time is con­cerned, then, no cognition in us precedes experience, and with experi­ ence every cognition begins» ibid.

    This do not mean there are two kinds of knowledge(one temporal and one not temporal) but that, if we have knowledge at all, we need to recognize it as knowledge, and in doing so, we presuppose a referential structure(a structure in which the sensible data are processed until a distinction between an objective unity and a subjective unity). This referential structure, however, does not by itself differentiates what is an object an what is a subject(of knowledge). To be so, it is necessary another formal, but sensibly formal, distinction: that between Time, as the form of recognition of the subject side, and Space, as the form characterizing the object side.

    Time, hence, is a necessary condition of knowledge, insofar knowledge is relational: it is an order relationship in a referential structure, let's say: between something that select meaningful data and the meaning thus recognizable, such that what operates the selection is called Subject while which results from that selection, in so far as the subject can further work on it, it is called Object.

    Yet, Time alone is not sufficient condition of knowledge, because no difference is recognizable in its unities, i.e. instants. Therefore, there would be no reason to distinguish at all between them, and being a mere order of succession, there would be no relation at all between the instants, except for them being all somehow products of a certain process. Time presupposes a referential structure, in order to distinguish a subject of knowledge and an object known, because in time, as an ordered series, there are no STATES but just INSTANTS, regulates by the operations which results in any of them. While our knowledge begins with a difference in a state: the sensibility is affected, and the cognitive faculty, from a state of inactivity, at least: of activity recognizable by us, passes in a state of activity.

    I shall point out here, that time is neither a mathematical succession, because mathematical succession as no definite o r i e n t a t i o n; nor a mere ordered succession, because not only is time ordered(in regards to symmetry, and, in this regards, actually this is not true at every scale of natural phenomena), but it as a VERSE(irreversibility): eggs break but do not unbreak(while in general it may be the opposite for other being).

    The reason why we perceive events as irreversible is our interaction with that which is designated by the Boltzmann parameter, and being its values sufficiently big, this interaction results in a certain mode of perceiving events, which we call: temporal form of perceiving events.

    SUSPENSION

    I shall end my opening discourse here, waiting for your critics, comments, amendments. In advance thanking each one that would help me and share their reasonings(for content is the way to reach absolutely valid schemes of reasonings to me, though their formulation and recognizance shall always be bounded to certain conditions).
  • Devans99
    2.7k
    There is no doubt whatever that all our cognition begins with experi­ ence;Ikolos

    We had a recent discussion on the premise of you OP and I/we are in agreement with you I think:

    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/4562/we-dont-create-we-synthesize/p1

    If our cognitive faculty is awakened, then it is so by the object of senses or otherwiseIkolos

    I would have said 'senses or memory'. All thoughts trace a heritage back to senses or memory.

    I shall point out here, that time is neither a mathematical succession, because mathematical succession as no definite o r i e n t a t i o n; nor a mere ordered succession, because not only is time ordered(in regards to symmetry, and, in this regards, actually this is not true at every scale of natural phenomena), but it as a VERSE(irreversibility): eggs break but do not unbreak(while in general it may be the opposite for other being).Ikolos

    I'm afraid I do not agree with you concept of time (see the other thread).
  • Ikolos
    34


    GREETINGS

    First, I want to thank Devan for this and eventually others comments, which are always guided by a true inquisitive interest and great respect throughout the conversational form.

    Now I answer.

    PLATONISM

    Citing yourself from the post you linked:

    «I believe you are correct; our minds seem to link existing concepts and map concepts across domains rather than creating new concepts.»

    We share the same way of thinking here, even if I'd prefer to call the independently existing: schemes rather than concepts, as concepts presupposes an instance of non contradictions which is not required in a more general theory of inference, e.g. lambda calculus. By schemes I intend somehow an instruction to refer, within a general structure of which each cognitive type(e.g. man) would be a realization, the recognition of a subjective unity and an objective one to different patterns, which differs in kind because the differences between those unities need to be preserved.

    SOMETHING NEW 'ABOVE' THE SUN

    I didn't get if you f r o m this infer the impossibility of the r e c o g n I z a n c e of new concepts, which thing I think is possible just because the difference between our intuition(which is sensible, and need some physical condition to operate effectively) and an intellectual intuition(an intuition which would p r o d u c e directly what it would apprehend).

    I cite you again from the thread you linked me to:

    «Zero came from consideration of emptiness. Infinity from consideration of the very large.

    Can anyone refute this with an example of a genuine new idea?»

    Zero, in Peano arithmetics, is just postulated. It does not come from consideration of emptiness, but from the consideration of a neutral element in the operation of succession. The postulate states that 0 is a number. Then there is an axiom, which states: if n is a number, n+x is a number. This axiom closes the set of numbers in respect to the operation of succession. Hence, 0 is a new idea. I argue that every postulate is a new idea. Also hypothesis are new ideas: infinity does not come from the consideration of very large, but from the consideration of the unconditioned nature of the relation between an operation and the unity used to obtain results.

    I explain better. If I add one grain of salt to a n quantity of grains of salt, I obtain n+1 grains of salt. But the Operation of addition IS NOT conditioned by this result, neither by the unity(here: a grain) nor by which represents the unity as a scale of measuring the resulting quantity(here: the grain OF SALT). Hence the concept of infinity.

    HOW MEMORY IS DISTINGUISHABLE FROM SENSES?

    I would have said 'senses or memory'. All thoughts trace a heritage back to senses or memory.Devans99

    Can you please explain this further? I think we say we remember something(potentially) only if a sensation reached a certain degree both of intensity and of complexity. If I get hurt by something which I didn't see before nor after the hit, I would say the remembering equals the sensation, if no further details are added: e.g. I am in a bar, from that point I will remember THE BAR as the place were I was hit.

    TIME AT ISSUE

    I'm afraid I do not agree with you concept of time (see the other thread).Devans99

    Like I said, I didn't understand what you actually intend with the word 'Time'. In brief, I didn't think is a concept, but a mode of perceiving events depending on our interaction with the physical world. Of course this interaction follows more general law of nature(i.e. valid for beings with a constitution different from that we have) but time itself depend on the subjective constitution to me, and also its eventual development as mode of perceiving things depends on the development of the subjective constitution to which it cohere.

    SUMING UP CONCLUSIONS

    Hence, I think it is correct to say that OUR KNOWING PROCESS begins with temporal conditions, but not with as time is a mode of perceiving things, yet with time as it would be the manifestation of a physical law of increasing complexity(or, more generally, of an orientation of a sufficiently comprehensive physical process). Following this law, nature will generate some physical system capable of cognitive activity, or, more generally, nature will give the conditions of possibility of the configuration, in which the recognition of the law itself would be possible.

    Still, I'm not suggesting that KNOWLEDGE ITSELF, or better: the structures which we recognize as necessary to know, depend on Time: neither on the 'complexity time',i.e. the time which is index of a general law of increasing complexity in the development of life, nor on the 'conditional time', i.e. that we use to determinate a coordinative system to our perceptions.

    I think the independency of knowledge from any particular cognitive being has a correspective independency in regards to any particular condition of being known, as it renders possible at all knowledge as a dynamical, regulated process.
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