• DiegoT
    318
    I have some doubts regarding the category this issue belongs to; on the one hand my capacity to argue my ideas is very limited, on the other, I really want to elicit comments that deal with the topic rigorously so that I can learn from you. I will understand your arguments way better than I can produce mine, so if you can bear with my poor analysis, I´m hoping good ideas might be contributed by knowledgeable members. On top of my lack of philosophical understanding, I am also not a native English speaker, so I might confuse you with my choice of words. I hope your wits can overcome all of this.

    The matter: I am very concerned about values and the philosophical ground for rights and duties, not only within the human species, but throughout the Universe. This question is more critical now than it was a hundred years ago, when Western supremacy and the apparent ultimate triumph of the Enlightenment in the world made unnecessary to go beyond subjective, culturally bound, basis for the values and human rights we Europeans wished the whole of human kind to be aware of. Jacques Maritain, who was involved in the draft of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights in 1948, commented then that the process had turned up very well, so long as nobody asked what the foundation for these rights actually was.

    Well, we are no longer in the position of ignoring this conundrum. Neither the objectivist theory nor the subjectivist theory managed to solve the problem. Basing values and rights in eternal universals did not work, becouse Reason found its own limitations in the twentieth century, as you all know better than I do; I like to think that was actually a great achievement, a solid edifice for Socrates´ demand that at least we should know that we don´t really know. You can not tie values to a network that will always have a loose end, as Einstein´s best friend in Princeton stated in his Incompleteness Theorem, and other developments such as those derived by the criticism of Wittgenstein´s works.

    However, subjectivist theories, based on preferences and feelings and cultural biases have seriously undermined Ethics itself, not in theory but in practice, by imposing moral relativism understood as anything goes.

    I understand, or misunderstand, constructivist approaches as a middle ground that leads to nowhere. If A and B are dead ends, anything in between is also a dead end, becouse all the points share the same dimensional status, a common framework, a straight line nobody dares to step off of.

    In my merely intuitive understanding, I want to argue that none of these approaches bear in mind how useful the metaphor of relativity (not relativism) have been beyond Physics and Cosmology and still is to deepen our knowledge of the phenomenal world, or as I like to think of it, the "signal" the "real thing" sends us as we are able to construct it in our imagination. In Einstein´s tale, spacetime is both objective and subjective; it has universal properties and also local values. In fact, the essential, universal, apparently unchanging core features such as the speed of light, depend on measures to be different in each scenario or "conjunction" involving both the observed and the observer, imagined as separate, if we want those features or regularities to be really abiding and continual.

    I believe this metaphor could help us establish a way to establish a set of values and a doctrine of human and non human rights and duties that is independent of culture and can speak to different people. On the one hand, we have very compelling evidence that logic and mathematics, is not just a human construct, but cultural tools to communicate with a "signal" or phenomena that computers and living things, indeed all processing structures we are aware of, also need to deal with. For example, crows don´t have a formulation of the Archimedes´ Principle, but they do understand that the level of a liquid in a container rises in proportion to the amount of stones you have to introduce in that liquid. They must have a sort of non verbal notion of the causal relationship, becouse they are shown to be able to collect enough stones to make the nuts reachable in the experiments. Another beautiful example is how animals who need to move fast and swiftly in a fluid, such as fish or birds, tend to be sculpted into a vesica piscis basic body structures. Some can do both water and air, such as flying fish and some birds adapted to fish under the surface. This means that Vesica Piscis itself is a cultural product, with religious and esoteric meanings in different regions of the world; but the same underlying principle is working in those animals save energy and our minds find mandorlas in art beautiful. It´s a simple mathematical equation that saves energy in locomotion and also happens to make human visual perception cheaper.


    So it is reasonable to assume, unless new experiences demand otherwise, that logical-mathematical language, even spoken in our human dialect, is a lingua franca we share with the rest of physical reality. Our axiological and ethical systems should speak that language, and be linked with the signal, with the shared human experience of it that is, which is Science. Science and Reason can not give us why we should care about things; but they do deal with the things we care about, so before any subjectivity is brought to the table, this common ground must be recognized and our preferences need to be related to it to be valid. The founding myths our values and set of rights and duties are based on, need to be shaped by the force of the fluid, must interact with the signal.

    And that interaction means that values must be both constant and be balanced out to take context into consideration, just like cosmologists do with their calculation. For example, emigrants value both freedom and security, but to emigrate they need to put more weight in freedom than in security to save both, as they will lose everything by not taking some risks inherent to migrating abroad. When they are established though, they have to value security more to keep their freedom, so they vote for Trump and the wall. Values are constant for these people, but their local (contextual or situational) dimension and weight change to remain, as Emperor penguins changed their original shape into a fish-like one to remain. Whales have done the trick several times already, so I would not rule out terrestrial whales again in an after-human future.

    I hope any of this makes any sense. The whole point is to agree that empiricism and logical-mathematical language, flawed and polluted and incomplete as they are, is the only code all humans, animals and phenomena in this universe, so far as we know, can use to communicate with each other. It is the code planets use to synchronize their orbits and avoid crashing against each other; if it works for them it should help poor humans too. And from this point I derive that values and rights have to use it too, at least on a fundamental level, which in its turn implies to understand how context modify them to keep them universal, to keep them attached to the natural laws of Reality.

    If my text is inappropriate, I will be happy to relocate it to a more suitable category or another forum. It is comments that count anyway, I just tried my best to direct them to a problem I really care about.
  • khaled
    3.5k
    as far as I understand, you seem to be trying to tie ethics to the core tenets of logic and mathematics but I do not believe this to be possible. I think you are trying to derive a should from an is which is fundamentally impossible, it is just as impossible as all those fundamentals you are trying to tie ethics to. "One cannot derive an ought from an is" is right up there with 2+2=4 as far as reliability and consistency goes. You also seem to be making a point that the language of mathematics and logic is fundamental when it is far from it. There are multiple kinds of logic, multiple kinds of math and multiple kinds of geometry and there is always the option to abandon logic, math and geometry (as flat earthers have shown). There is not type of "meta logic" that can tell you which type of logic/math/geometry to pick that is not itself a member of a set of possible "meta logics", at least I have failed to find one. If you can, or if anyone here can, by all means
  • DiegoT
    318
    I did not explained myself well then Khaled. I don´t suppose you can derive values or Ethics from Mathematics and Logic and Science; what I meant is that you can not defend values or rights that are in contradiction, or do not take very much into account, these sources of established knowledge. For example, you can not just say that gay couples should have an equal right to adopt children than heterosexual couples, before you test scientifically what is best for children, or even against what has been published in that field of research. I´m neither gay nor a person who wants to adopt, that is why this example feels neutral and easy; but I know that people involved in adopting children do care and are left with just lobbying and campaigning to set up the rules. That is not ethical, of course, or is it not Ethics just reason applied to living your life well?

    I also do not claim that Mathematics and Logic are fundamental. I even tried to make clear that they are cultural products. However, Mathematics or Logic, any branch of them, any approach to them, are always reactions to some mysterious patterns that are external to these cultural systems, phenomena that exist for non human systems too and are measurable to some degree. For example: 1 + 1 does NOT equal 2 in reality; it´s an abstraction, that picks some relationships in the universe and ignore the rest. When you count two oranges, you are not taking into account the effect of their mutual interaction, their location in spacetime, the objects they are interacting with, or the fact that in the atomic level of complexity, there are no oranges at all. These are all measurable quantities; for example you can calculate the gravitational interactions between the two oranges and the oranges with the Earth; or predict that the fact that the oranges are together will increase the production of fruit flies when they go to waste, in comparison with the production of fruit flies if the oranges are separated three kilometres (becouse fruit flies go for two oranges in greater numbers than for only one). So 1 + 1, whatever the objects considered, is really NEVER 2, at least in this universe. Nevertheless, one plus one equals two is not just an absurd proposition; it does relates to the physical and imaginal world, it just does so in an abstract way. Abs is a Latin prefix meaning separation or privation; so to abstract is to pick some elements and leave the rest, becouse mental resources are limited, and we can not take into account all that exists. We usually just want some oranges and care not for their gravitational leanings or quantum interactions. Thus, our Maths and Logic are not fanciful; they just don´t account for ALL real relationships in both the physical and the imaginal o secundary worlds. Becouse some people care for oranges and others for cherries, different mathematical tools are devised and some are not that well designed. But an underlying reality or pattern exists that humans, comets, ants and water molecules are reacting to, or better said, are part of. Hammers come in different shapes and materials, but at the end of the day, a banana is not a hammer and won´t do the job. The same should apply to values and rights and duties as mental tools of our behaviour, if you really want to nail it with them. Before we all go bananas.
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