• Yajur
    15
    The ontological argument assumes the definition of God proposed by classical theism: that God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent.
    This is incompatible since if God is omnipotent, then he should be able to create a being with free will; if he is omniscient, then he should know exactly what such a being will do (thus rendering them without free will). This analysis would render the ontological argument incoherent, as the characteristics required of a maximally great being cannot coexist in one being, thus such a being could not exist.
    Thus this is an objection to premise 1 since such a God doesn't exist even in my understanding.
    Thus fail.
    1. The OG? (1 vote)
        Anselm
          0%
        Gaunilo
        100%
  • DingoJones
    84
    Why would a person have free will just becuase someone else has foreknowledge of the choice they will make?
  • tim wood
    1.2k
    The problem with this is that for Anselm, God is an absolute presupposition. That means he does not "prove" anything about God; his "proof" is merely a demonstration for "the fool." Gaunilo called him on it, and Anselm (apparently) said he didn't care, meaning if nothing else he (Anselm) understood his own argument perfectly.

    as the characteristics required of a maximally great being cannot coexist in one being, thus such a being could not exist.Yajur
    Characteristics cannot exist in one being? Why not?
  • DingoJones
    84
    I think he meant the specific characteristics he mentioned, the 3 “O”’s as it were.
    I would take it a step further and suggest the traits themselves are nonsensical,
  • tim wood
    1.2k
    Anything Walt Whitman could do, God can do.
  • Yajur
    15
    Why would a person have free will just becuase someone else has foreknowledge of the choice they will make?DingoJones

    Free will is the power of acting without the constraints of necessity or fate.
    If God has foreknowledge of a persons choice, then the person is constrained to that choice.
    Hence rendering him without free will.
  • Yajur
    15
    Anything Walt Whitman could do, God can do.tim wood

    If Walt could become an atheist, can God become an atheist too?
  • DingoJones
    84

    The foreknowledge of what the person will choose doesn't effect the choice the person will make, unless the person with foreknowledge tells the person but even then not in every case.
    Let me demonstrate:
    You have a choice between your worst possible scenario or your best possible scenario.
    I know which one you will choose, does that mean you no longer have a choice? Certainly not, you still have very good reasons for choosing your best possible scenario and very good reasons to not choose your worst possible scenario. Fate has nothing to do with it, foreknowledge of something isnt fate. It is simply an awareness of the factors that will lead to a certain decision.
  • Rank Amateur
    427
    I vote for Aquinas's argument against Anselm - that we do not posses the ability or the tools to, in anyway, accurately imagine the nature of God.

    aside - I think the Ontological argument is elegant logic, and not a very good proof of the existence of God.
  • tim wood
    1.2k
    Anything Walt Whitman could do, God can do.
    — tim wood

    If Walt could become an atheist, can God become an atheist too?
    Yajur

    Nice! I suppose we could assay just exactly what "atheist" means - that might answer. But I'll try a different answer: given a sufficiently broad definition/understanding of "God," I argue that it is impossible to be an a-theist. What definition/understanding would that be? Simply a belief that there is an account of the world. Under that definition, to be an atheist would be to deny that there is any such account(ing) of the world.

    If instead you wish to limit atheism to the denial of the existence of certain beings, you're free to do so, but I consider both sides of that argument too trivial to waste time on.
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