• Yajur
    31
    1. Either God can create a stone so heavy that he cannot lift, or he can't
    2. If God can create such a stone, then he is not omnipotent
    3. If God can't create such a stone, then he is not omnipotent
    4 Therefore, he is not omnipotent
  • Wheatley
    2.3k
    According to some believers omnipotence doesn't mean that God can do things that are logically possible. By "omnipotent" they mean can do anything that is logically possible. So Premise 3 is not necessarily true.
  • BrianW
    999


    What about choice? Suppose God creates a stone and chooses not to lift it.
  • Moliere
    4k
    God doesn't conform to the law of the excluded middle -- after all, he is omnipotent. Why should he be contained by our preferred patterns of inference?
  • unenlightened
    8.7k
    He isn't.

    vegetarian - not made of meat
    bacon - a meat product.

    God cannot make vegetarian bacon, although he is omnipotent, because I have just defined it to be an impossible object. This does not restrict what God can or cannot make any more than it restricts what Global Soya Inc. can make. It just restricts what I am willing to call it.
  • tim wood
    8.7k
    Either GodYajur
    If GodYajur
    Makes no sense to talk or think about something without first giving some specification of what that something is - this is a philosophy site, not an elementary school lunchroom (where I first heard this old chestnut). So man up and tell us something about this God, so that we know what you're thinking and asking about.
  • Moliere
    4k
    I would like to be able to say that an omnipotent being can create contradictions. But there's a fair point you're making here about our willingness.

    Maybe I'd put it that God cannot contradict analytic truths, but that's not a restriction on God as much as it is a grammar of preference. But if he is omnipotent I'd say that he can create synthetic true contradictions -- something like the liar's paradox.
  • Michael1981
    1
    This scenario is inherently corrupt. The very word "omnipotence" excludes "cannot" by its definition. It's a stupid trick, not even worth addressing really.

    The appropriate response to humor this question would be another question: "Why would God, Who can do anything, bother doing something so incredibly stupid and pointless?"
  • gloaming
    128
    What if God IS the stone?
  • Pierre-Normand
    2.2k
    "Why would God, Who can do anything, bother doing something so incredibly stupid and pointless?"Michael1981

    What if God IS the stone?gloaming

    I had very much the same thought. I was thinking that God (or whoever thought about herself that she was God) would kick herself for having performed such a dumb and pointless act of creation. And then she would pause to contemplate the almighty stone that's now defeating her powers, and call it her God.
  • Michael
    14k
    If God can create such a stone, then he is not omnipotentYajur

    How does this follow?
  • Pierre-Normand
    2.2k
    How does this follow?Michael

    Because God thereby lacks the power to lift the stone.
  • prothero
    429
    I always take issue with the notion that divine omnipotence is a useful religious concept. I don't think it is. Some professional theologians and philosophers agree with me, hence process theology and process philosophy. See Charles Hartshorne "Omnipotence and Other Theological Mistakes". Anyway these sort of conundrums should cause you to question the conceptions of the divine which give rise to them in the first place.
  • Yajur
    31

    We are talking about can and cannot.
    So either God can or cannot make such a stone.
    Let's say God chooses not to lift the rock but he possibly can, then he failed at making the described rock, hence he's not omnipotent.
  • Yajur
    31
    God doesn't conform to the law of the excluded middleMoliere

    Is there a particular third option you have in mind?
  • Yajur
    31
    God cannot make vegetarian bacon, although he is omnipotent, because I have just defined it to be an impossible object.unenlightened

    Yes, however, creating a rock so heavy that one cannot lift is not an impossible task. I can easily create objects so heavy that I cannot lift.
  • Yajur
    31
    Makes no sense to talk or think about something without first giving some specification of what that something istim wood

    I am talking about the general definition of God (you can think in terms of whatever Religion you do or don't follow).

    If it's still unclear, check this out https://www.google.com/search?q=god+meaning&oq=god+meaning&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.4537j1j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
  • BrianW
    999


    What are you talking about? You need to give us your definition of God and omnipotence. You seem to want God to exhibit human tendencies. Is God omnipotent before or after the creation of that stone? I should think that any being (not only that which is named God) is omnipotent if they have no limitation.
    Your premise cannot assume omnipotence before the relevant factors have been appropriately considered. You should have said:

    1. Either X can create a stone so heavy that he cannot lift, or he can't
    2. If X can create such a stone, then he is not omnipotent
    3. If X can't create such a stone, then he is not omnipotent
    4 Therefore, he is not omnipotent

    From your succeeding statements, by God you already imply omnipotence which makes your arguments (1-4) illogical.
  • tim wood
    8.7k
    Ok. Here's what your reference says:

    1. (in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.

    2. (in certain other religions) a superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity.

    The idea, then, is that if there is such a being - uh, wait, it says being; let's go see what a being is.

    A being (same source) is:

    1. existence.

    2. the nature or essence of a person.

    3. a real or imaginary living creature.

    None of this will do for God, hence God, by your references cannot be a being. Go back and try again.
  • Yajur
    31

    Ok, my definition of God is a being who is Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent.
    My definition of Omnipotence is being able to do anything

    So I rewrite the argument with these definitions using Modus Tollens,

    1. If God exists, then he is omnipotent
    2. No being is omnipotent
    3. Therefore God does not exist.

    Now to defend premise 3,

    a. Either some being can create a stone so heavy that he cannot lift it, or he cannot
    b. If he can create such a stone, he is not omnipotent
    c. If he cannot create such a stone, he is not omnipotent.
    d. No being is omnipotent

    Is God omnipotent before or after the creation of that stone?BrianW
    I think most religions believe God is omnipotent throughout
  • Yajur
    31
    A being (same source) is:

    1. existence.

    2. the nature or essence of a person.

    3. a real or imaginary living creature.

    None of this will do for God,
    tim wood

    Umm so according to you God is not a real creature. Are you arguing for atheism?
  • BrianW
    999


    Still creating dissonance.

    1. If God exists, then he is omnipotent
    2. No being is omnipotent
    3. Therefore God does not exist.
    Yajur

    If you have already concluded that no being is omnipotent, what is the purpose of this whole exercise?
  • Yajur
    31
    If you have already concluded that no being is omnipotent, what is the purpose of this whole exercise?BrianW

    The point is to show an omnipotent God cannot exist. Apparently, using Modus Tollens here.

    Think of the argument: If there is smoke, there is fire. There is not fire, so there is no smoke.

    This might help further http://www.philosophy-index.com/logic/forms/modus-tollens.php
  • BrianW
    999
    If there is smoke, there is fire. There is not fire, so there is no smoke.Yajur

    There must be context. For example, in this statement, it could mean that no fire is observed where it was expected or pointed out to be. It does not mean that fire and smoke do not exist.
    So, in what context does God not exist and how have you gained such information, how have you interpreted it and what (principle, analogy, experience, proof, etc) validates your conclusion?

    Ps. After the above process what you'll have given is your perspective. From it, others can analyse to see if it meets their standards of reason as well.
  • tim wood
    8.7k
    No. I'm trying to get you to think a bit more about your OP
  • Michael
    14k
    Because God thereby lacks the power to lift the stone.Pierre-Normand

    What stone?
  • Pierre-Normand
    2.2k
    What stone?Michael

    Yes, it's true that if Her power to create such a stone remains unactualized, then, in that case, Her merely having this power doesn't entail a contradiction.
  • Michael
    14k
    Her merely having this power doesn't entail a contradiction.Pierre-Normand

    Which I believe is the solution to the paradox. God can create the stone but doesn't.
  • Pierre-Normand
    2.2k
    Which I believe is the solution to the paradox. God can create the stone, but doesn't.Michael

    I rather like this purported solution, not because I am especially interested in saving the notion of an omnipotent god, but because it is a useful reminder of the general distinction between an agent (who may be an ordinary human being) lacking a power and her being in contingent conditions entailing that she will not exercise it. Failures to recognize this distinction often leads to some variations on the modal fallacy.
  • unenlightened
    8.7k
    Yes, however, creating a rock so heavy that one cannot lift is not an impossible task. I can easily create objects so heavy that I cannot lift.Yajur

    I'm not a great creator myself, but I have come across rocks so heavy I cannot lift them. But not rocks so heavy that an omnipotent being cannot lift them, those are impossible objects by definition. As such, it does not limit God in any way, but only what we can sensibly say. God, or Bio-Med Inc. might create vat grown muscle tissue from piggy DNA, or avocados that oink, but neither would be vegetarian bacon, unless we change the definitions, because non-meat meat is impossible. A rock that cannot be lifted by someone who can lift any rock is impossible - a nonsense.
  • Moliere
    4k
    Well, I think @unenlightened has the right of it in the above with respect to the particular example you're giving.

    The middle I had in mind was between truth and falsity, though. Or the notion of true contradictions. I should have probably said the law of non-contradiction, but I was just quickly typing off a response.
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