To borrow terms from CBT, the above would be black and white thinking, overgeneralizing, magnifying the negative, dismissing the positive, and 'Svengali' or erroneous predictive thinking, and hence, I feel broken to my core.

CBT and the related mindfullness meditation approach seem to be putting up good results against depression.

To me these approaches seem to indicate that you disentangle from these identifications and thoughts by habituating yourself into new ways of thinking that gradually replace the old. Thoughts are seen as habits, so sustained repetition seems to be key.

Anyway, I'm not qualified to give advice on depression, I'm just giving you my general idea about these methods.

To me these approaches seem to indicate that you disentangle from these identifications and thoughts by habituating yourself into new ways of thinking that gradually replace the old. Thoughts are seen as habits, so sustained repetition seems to be key. — ChatteringMonkey

Yes, in CBT they're called automatic thoughts or such. So, I think you're right about that. My only gist is that much like how we have the terminology of "anti"-depressants so too have psychology followed and adopted an anti-depressant attitude towards depression.

I posted a while ago about embracing one's depression and the thoughts were mostly in agreement that depression is a natural state of the body and needs to be accepted first to delve into its root cause. So, I think, in my honest opinion, CBT as a band-aid that can be applied or rather an antiseptic for a wound that can be applied to a wound. Forgive the bland analogy, just to try and externalize the issue into some simpler terms.

But, that doesn't quite cut it. Something more is needed, and the realization of the need for disidentifying with depression is where this comes in handy.

You know how someone who burns their hand once knows then not to bring it near the fire, so maybe the process of disidentifying from depression is an ideal. What do you think?

Much like how Whitehead said that the European philosophical tradition is simply footnotes to Plato, so too does the endless neuroticism and rationalizations come forth from depression.

If you separate depression from the thoughts that arise from it, would it be so bad? I wish there was an answer, or is there? But, the process of separating something from another thing is too tantamount to 'identification'. How do you surmount this dilemma?

I think you may be right about CBT and antidepressants, that it's more of a 'jumpstart' to get you going then an actual cure.

About the identification thing, I need to think some more. And I need some sleep, it's way past midnight here.

I think you may be right about CBT and antidepressants, that it's more of a 'jumpstart' to get you going then an actual cure.

About the identification thing, I need to think some more. And I need some sleep, it's way past midnight here. — ChatteringMonkey

Have a good night. Thanks for posting.

Well, just going off on a rant. I feel like anyone with depression identifies with their symptoms to some degree, which is reinforced by the psychiatrist that you visit. The idea being that people are pigeonholed into diagnosis by a psychiatrist and then identify with them based on symptomology.

I've struggled with anhedonia and feelings of worthlessness and hence take my medication. But, when does stopping the medication seems like a good idea? Once on it, it seems like a package deal. Here I am medication X serving as something that negates the depression. As long as you take me, the depression is fine. The patient wonders when has the depression remitted, but that's as long as the medication is administered.

Keep in mind that we're talking about clinical depression and not plain run on the mill depression you get from a life event or setback.

Does anyone know any good Western books on 'disidentification'? I know it smells of Eastern philosophy; and meditation... But, whatever works, I guess.

Somewhat relevant picture:

Keep in mind that we're talking about clinical depression and not plain run on the mill depression you get from a life event or setback. — Posty McPostface

I am vaguely aware that what you're referencing is no joke at all. Vaguely because I've had just a slight taste, and that was an education. Platitudes aren't useful - and there are so many varieties of suicide, even those that keep you alive for years.

If you're telling how you really are, then you're a person with a serious and a dangerous problem and condition. All that comes to me at the moment is Odysseus's having himself bound to the mast so that the siren's song would not drive him to harm, almost all of us with our ears stopped so that we cannot hear.

And the medicine's a bitch, a set of problems in itself, or it used to be.

If anything is to be got from Odysseus's experience, it would seem to be that he set himself to face the experience - having first accommodated his understanding of his own limitations - and for lack of a better word, ate it, before it ate him. Perhaps Odysseus has something to say to you.

I am vaguely aware that what you're referencing is no joke at all. Vaguely because I've had just a slight taste, and that was an education. Platitudes aren't useful - and there are so many varieties of suicide, even those that keep you alive for years. — tim wood

Hmm, I didn't mean to imply any of the sentiments you picked up. I wouldn't classify myself as a clinical depressive.

Anyway, this isn't a cry out for help. I just was interested in the concept of disidentification and used my depression as a template, if you care to elaborate on that?

It seems to me that to disidentify, there must first be identification. And it would seem that identification must be different from being. Then, as looking at the waves is different from being in the waves, the interest has to be defined. Do you want to do it or do you want to watch/observe/study it?

In any case, progress is usually measured from a starting point, in this case, who you are now. For serious inquiry into this topic, it's hard to beat a program of meditation. It's not quick but nothing along these lines is - no magic pill.

Meditation for the groundwork for the interior change. For the exterior, to change that you have to know, again, what you're changing (knowing why helps too). So you keep a journal, and those behaviours - all of them - that you want to change as being part of your program of disidentification, you change them.

How long does it take? In as much as it's a process of incremental change over time, no one should suppose it a quick process to complete. And there's a somewhat subtle language trap: the process is thought as a discrete single event. The trick is to understand that the change is continuous.

Suppose you want to be an ice skater. You imagine the finished product, you with Olympic gold, or you with the Stanley Cup. In terms of that final image, you may feel you've got nowhere. But the fact is you practice; in a short time you will be doing things you never imagined or understood you could be doing. And that will continue. After six months you will think you know how to skate. After seven months you will realize that you didn't actually know at six months, but now at seven months you do. And so it goes. After a while you will recognize a progress of steps, at each step of which your understanding and knowledge will be different than it was before, although built on what came before.

This is hard to get if you haven't been through it. Something as simple as running: everyone thinks they know what running is. But I, after 50 years of it, can assure you that no one knows who doesn't do it, and the more you do it, the more you know about it.

in short, I suppose that if you want to get away from something, then start to get away from it, and try to get further every day. Similarly if you want to get closer to something. Even shorter: it's a matter of applied and deliberate doing. I think zen provides the briefest locution, though it's a brevity that calls for explication; Practice!

It seems to me that to disidentify, there must first be identification. And it would seem that identification must be different from being. — tim wood

Yes, it is different from being. Identification in some sense supersedes being. In that instant of identification is an idea(l) formed and conceptualized. I am not happy because I am depressed. I am such and such because I am depressed, yet again. Just to berate the depressed template.

Then, as looking at the waves is different from being in the waves, the interest has to be defined. Do you want to do it or do you want to watch/observe/study it? — tim wood

I guess you can extend that analogy and say that one is perpetually missing out the whole of something or the parts of that thing in mind. The mind is limited after all. But, this is where disidentification comes into play, I think. Instead of identifying a part or whole, everything is appreciated in a grasp of pure awareness.

In any case, progress is usually measured from a starting point, in this case, who you are now. For serious inquiry into this topic, it's hard to beat a program of meditation. It's not quick but nothing along these lines is - no magic pill. — tim wood

I agree. I think, that meditation detaches our thoughts from content and form is made apparent. It is the form of thought that gives rise to awareness. Pure and simple, it is awareness of the fact that we are trying to impose content upon the thought that gives rise to identification.

Meditation for the groundwork for the interior change. For the exterior, to change that you have to know, again, what you're changing (knowing why helps too). So you keep a journal, and those behaviours - all of them - that you want to change as being part of your program of disidentification, you change them. — tim wood

And, yet try not to think about the white polar bear. It isn't so easy, as you've noted identification comes first and then disidentification can ensue.

How long does it take? In as much as it's a process of incremental change over time, no one should suppose it a quick process to complete. And there's a somewhat subtle language trap: the process is thought as a discrete single event. The trick is to understand that the change is continuous. — tim wood

What do you mean? I'm wondering about the idea of this process. Care to expand?

Suppose you want to be an ice skater. You imagine the finished product, you with Olympic gold, or you with the Stanley Cup. In terms of that final image, you may feel you've got nowhere. But the fact is you practice; in a short time you will be doing things you never imagined or understood you could be doing. And that will continue. After six months you will think you know how to skate. After seven months you will realize that you didn't actually know at six months, but now at seven months you do. And so it goes. After a while you will recognize a progress of steps, at each step of which your understanding and knowledge will be different than it was before, although built on what came before.

This is hard to get if you haven't been through it. Something as simple as running: everyone thinks they know what running is. But I, after 50 years of it, can assure you that no one knows who doesn't do it, and the more you do it, the more you know about it.

in short, I suppose that if you want to get away from something, then start to get away from it, and try to get further every day. Similarly if you want to get closer to something. Even shorter: it's a matter of applied and deliberate doing. I think zen provides the briefest locution, though it's a brevity that calls for explication; Practice! — tim wood

Surely depression is not overcome through this same process or method? Otherwise, we might as well agree with the jerk that tells the depressed individual to just cheer up.

For many,
The first step on
A spiritual journey is to
Become lost.
The final step is
Losing one’s self. — Wu Hisn

I have no idea if this will help, but here's what I've got to put on the table.

Forget about analyzing the problem. That just generates more thought, which is the source of the problem.

Instead, keep it as simple and mechanical as possible.

1) Suffering is made of thought.
2) If we're not thinking, we can't suffer.
3) Simple.

Look for simple mechanical exercises that reduce the volume of thought, and apply as needed.

As example, when you eat lunch today you don't expect that meal to permanently solve the problem of physical hunger. You're hungry now, you eat now, problem solved, for now. Simple, sensible, realistic.

Same thing for psychic hunger. If you're suffering now, do exercises to reduce thought now, problem solved, for now. Simple, sensible, realistic.

Manage your brain with the same simple obvious common sense with which you manage your stomach. Don't complicate it, because complications create more thought, and thus more suffering.

Find exercises that work in reducing the volume of thought. Don't worry about why they work, or how they work, and all of that.

Ignore this post. Forget about this thread. Run from anybody who wants to do a sophisticated analysis of the problem. Run faster from anybody who thinks they're a guru, or even worse, a psychologist. :smile:

If the exercises work, do them as needed.

If the exercises don't work, find some that do.

If you're hungry, eat.

Keep it simple.

All this running. I can't help but feel as though this is all done out of some sense of urgency or impending doom. So much anxiety and struggles. It shouldn't be this hard or is that life for you?

Fear, distractions, entertainment, even goals all identify with something we are either pursuing or aversive from.

When does it stop?

Interesting thread. It brings up one of questions that seems primal: the boundaries of the self and other. I have some observations/theories (a mixture of something mostly borrowed, something new) about the general idea. (Hope this is somewhat in the vicinity of the topic, and clearly worded although it is an abstract area.)

Here’s the idea, in somewhat condensed form:

1. As far as the individual is concerned, there are two sides (or poles) of reality: Self and Other.
2. The Other is comprised of other people, and also other things, objects, energies, etc.
3. The distinction between Self and Other is often relatively distinct, but it is not completely black-and-white. It is not an absolute yes or no question.
4. The distinction between Self and Other is a fluid, moving boundary. Like the heap of sand Sorites paradox.
5. The Self/Other question is affected by several things, two of which have a noticeable effect: awareness and identification. Awareness reflecting one’s current apprehension of the situation. Identification reflecting one’s current choice of defining one’s nature.
6. It is possible to identify with that which is outside of one’s strict notion of oneself. For example, identifying with a city, nation, or tribe.
7. To further elaborate on the moving boundary between Self and other... awareness and identifications with Self and Other can be simultaneous. (I find it helpful to visualize it like the Bass/Treble equalizer settings on a stereo. It is an “X-Y” map. Both co-ordinates can be any number from zero to maximum, from low to high.)

When a person is a child, one is probably very fuzzy about the difference between themself and their surroundings or mother, for instance. But put in a positive way, children seem in general to be very aware of the “connectedness” of things. They are in the moment, in the flow of life. Thus they often seem to have wisdom beyond their years. Adults gain the critical knowledge of individuality, but often lose the sense of immersion or connection with anything beyond oneself. The goal (as some have said) is to have the ability to recognize both, in whatever proportion is necessary at the moment. To be deficient as a part, or as a whole is to be an incomplete human. For an individual is a whole, which is a part of a another whole. Not unlike viewing energy as both a wave and as a particule.

That’s the theory part of it. The “putting into practice” part is somewhat customizable, I believe. If music helps one go beyond oneself (without getting lost) then that is helpful. Or whatever practice/activity happens to work for someone, keeping the general idea or theory in mind.

I can't help but feel as though this is all done out of some sense of urgency or impending doom. So much anxiety and struggles. It shouldn't be this hard or is that life for you? — Posty McPostface

1) Urgency - made of thought.
2) Impending doom - made of thought.
3) Anxiety - made of thought.
3) Struggles - made of thought.
4) Hard - made of thought.

See the pattern?

It's not what we're thinking that is the issue, but that we are thinking. It's a mechanical problem, like when your stomach is empty.

Analysis => Thought => Suffering

When we're physically hungry we don't turn it in to a big complicated problem, we go get something to eat.

When we're experiencing psychic hunger, there's no need to turn it in to a big complicated problem. Just take a break from thinking. Turn the volume of the inner TV down.

I don't understand your solution. Is it just replacing thought with activity?

And to add to my above post, to relate it more specifically to the original post... I think that on one hand terms like “depression” or “OCD” are relevant and specific, and possibly even helpful. But as an existential feeling... in some ways at least... depression, anxiety, OCD, and other feelings and behaviors are kind of part of the same spectrum of symptoms. One could say that it part of life or part of maturation/“growing up” to deal with such feelings. (I would not necessarily disagree with that, though I would valiantly try to avoid sounding trite, cliched, smug, or uncaring when saying it.)

However... I am not the first person to note that our society is not exactly psychologically balanced. Some have said that our current civilization is full of confusions, contradictions, inconsistencies, and downright deceptions. (And that’s putting aside the full-blown tragedies and injustices for the moment.) How is one to balance oneself when the floor that they are standing on may very well be slanted or unstable? This is not meant as an excuse or rationale for bad behavior. But it seems to be a definite part of the overall picture.

[...] put in a positive way, children seem in general to be very aware of the “connectedness” of things. They are in the moment, in the flow of life. Thus they often seem to have wisdom beyond their years. Adults gain the critical knowledge of individuality, but often lose the sense of immersion or connection with anything beyond oneself. — 0 thru 9

Care to elaborate on this process? How does it come about that from connectedness people's sphere of interest shrinks to a smaller size to only (often) only encompass one's small dominion of sorts?

I think that on one hand terms like “depression” or “OCD” are relevant and specific, and possibly even helpful. But as an existential feeling... in some ways at least... depression, anxiety, OCD, and other feelings and behaviors are kind of part of the same spectrum of symptoms. — 0 thru 9

I don't quite see what your getting at here, sorry if I'm being a dunce; but, care to elaborate?

I think that on one hand terms like “depression” or “OCD” are relevant and specific, and possibly even helpful. But as an existential feeling... in some ways at least... depression, anxiety, OCD, and other feelings and behaviors are kind of part of the same spectrum of symptoms.
— 0 thru 9

I don't quite see what your getting at here, sorry if I'm being a dunce; but, care to elaborate? — Posty McPostface

No problem. Thanks for your reply. I was being a little imprecise. And to be clear, I wasn’t referring to your situation specifically. I’m no expert, but was treated for depression long ago. I think it’s better now, but others may perhaps disagree. In any event, I’m not currently seeing a professional therapist. But I have some general thoughts on it...

I just meant to differentiate between a specific medical situation/condition and a general existential crisis or malaise which many people seem to go through at some point in their life at least. In some, maybe the more acutely aware, this crisis could seem to last almost their entire adult life. And perhaps some successfully learn to deal with it, using it as an opportunity to understand life, reality, humanity, etc.

I just meant to differentiate between a specific medical situation/condition and a general existential crisis or malaise which many people seem to go through at some point in their life at least. In some, maybe the more acutely aware, this crisis could seem to last almost their entire adult life. And perhaps some successfully learn to deal with it, using it as an opportunity to understand life, reality, humanity, etc. — 0 thru 9

Ah, now I see. So, your point was to talk about issues (existential crisis, malaise, loss of loved one) in isolation or excluding pigeonholing label (depression, OCD, etc.), correct?

In case anyone is wondering where the term "disidentification" was founded or propounded, then there's a Wiki on a movement started by Roberto Assagioli, called Psychosynthesis where disidentification is promoted to create a more holistic human being instead of identity... stuff.

I arrived at this idea through my own labors; but, psychosynthesis is a very intriguing psychological movement in my opinion. It is self-defeating, though. :chin:

Links:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychosynthesis
http://www.psychosynthesispaloalto.com/pdfs/SevenConcepts1.pdf
http://synthesiscenter.org/articles/0011.pdf

Ah, now I see. So, your point was to talk about issues (existential crisis, malaise, loss of loved one) in isolation or excluding pigeonholing label (depression, OCD, etc.), correct? — Posty McPostface

Good question. I would say yes and maybe not exactly. “Yes” meaning giving the existential aspects some thought and significance (which all of us philosophy-lovers already here do, I think). And “not exactly” meaning that maybe there is a fuzzy area that is both existential and clinical or medical. Or psychological, ethical/intential, and physical all rolled together in one big ball.

In case anyone is wondering where the term "disidentification" was founded or propounded, then there's a Wiki on a movement started by Roberto Assagioli, called Psychosynthesis where disidentification is promoted to create a more holistic human being instead of identity... stuff. — Posty McPostface

This (in a very general way ) is the type of stuff I was getting at with the Self/Other awareness and identification ideas. Having some kind of way of approaching the tidal wave of life. Which can make a person feel like they are drowning, and might actually be fatal in many cases.

In general, it seems to be roughly three things:

It’s life... the triumphs and struggles of being human.

It is individual and particular... the unique situations one finds themself in, and the strategies used to cope with them.

It’s our civilization... as I noted above, there is much toxicity a person has to deal with in twenty-first century culture.

[...] put in a positive way, children seem in general to be very aware of the “connectedness” of things. They are in the moment, in the flow of life. Thus they often seem to have wisdom beyond their years. Adults gain the critical knowledge of individuality, but often lose the sense of immersion or connection with anything beyond oneself.
— 0 thru 9

Care to elaborate on this process? How does it come about that from connectedness people's sphere of interest shrinks to a smaller size to only (often) only encompass one's small dominion of sorts — Posty McPostface

I think this is where the mythic realm of art really can shine when at its best. The hero’s journey which we all are on, whether we accept it or not. Movies, novels, songs, paintings, poetry, etc. I have listed a few that have given some form to feelings that moved me in this thread.

Another work that inspires is Pink Floyd’s The Wall (movie and album). A dramatized survey of a life from childhood to adulthood, struggling not to be consumed by insanity. Many other examples. Please feel free to add some that you find enlightening or moving! Thanks again for your replies. :smile:

Good question. I would say yes and maybe not exactly. “Yes” meaning giving the existential aspects some thought and significance (which all of us philosophy-lovers already here do, I think). And “not exactly” meaning that maybe there is a fuzzy area that is both existential and clinical or medical. Or psychological, ethical/intential, and physical all rolled together in one big ball. — 0 thru 9

This is what I'm trying to decipher. It is through disidentification that those two distinctions fall apart and the dichotomy disappears. That's the profundity of the whole thing. It makes life easier to handle without the labels and stereotypes, identity politics, you name it, literally. It abolishes the artificial mental compartmentalization that we construe when growing up based on past experiences and whatnot. In some sense, it's ego-dissolving and transcending or liberating. Maybe I'm exaggerating; but, you get the gist I think.

This (in a very general way ) is the type of stuff I was getting at with the Self/Other awareness and identification ideas. Having some kind of way of approaching the tidal wave of life. Which can make a person feel like they are drowning, and might actually be fatal in many cases. — 0 thru 9

Yeah, give me some time to digest it, and I'll come around to figuring out your POV on the matter.

It’s life... the triumphs and struggles of being human.

It is individual and particular... the unique situations one finds themself in, and the strategies used to cope with them.

It’s our civilization... as I noted above, there is much toxicity a person has to deal with in twenty-first century culture. — 0 thru 9

I'm pretty much in agreement here. Nothing to add. But, I don't quite see how civilization factors in, it just sort of rolls along and one content person or Stoic?, Buddhist?, Hedonist? doesn't really find any need to change it. We take what we need and try and always ask for more.

I think this is where the mythic realm of art really can shine when at its best. The hero’s journey which we all are on, whether we accept it or not. Movies, novels, songs, paintings, poetry, etc. I have listed a few that have given some form to feelings that moved me in this thread. — 0 thru 9

Yes, we all love drama. It distracts from the mundane things we have to do. Some people don't like drama, and that's perfectly fine unless some asshole wants to create it.

Another work that inspires is Pink Floyd’s The Wall (movie and album). A dramatized survey of a life from childhood to adulthood, struggling not to be consumed by insanity. Many other examples. Please feel free to add some that you find enlightening or moving! Thanks again for your replies. :smile: — 0 thru 9

I'm 2001: A Space Odyssey, guy, haha.

I don't understand your solution. Is it just replacing thought with activity? — Posty McPostface

Ok, sorry, my bad. Will try again....

Replacing thought with activity could be one way to look at it. My favorite example is surfing. As we're racing across the face of a wave with the threat of tons of water falling on our head, the situation demands our full attention. Our brain is totally consumed with moment to moment balance calculations. There's no mental bandwidth available for thinking about ourselves, thus there is no suffering.

In this example, the activity of surfing is forcing us in to a "be here now" focus. Thought has been turned off temporarily, and thus neither the sufferer or the suffering can exist, because they're both made of thought.

Note how the above example is a purely mechanical solution. It didn't involve analyzing my life, my situation, my thoughts, my feelings etc. It didn't involve understanding anything.

What happened instead is that the activity of surfing temporarily turned off thought. And because psychological suffering is made entirely of thought, turning off thought also turned off suffering.

Another example. I've eaten 7 pieces of pizza, and now my stomach is suffering. So I stop eating pizza. Simple and obvious, right? Nothing complicated or sophisticated going on here.

It's the same thing if I've "eaten" too many thoughts, especially thoughts about myself. The solution is to take a break from thinking, or more realistically, to find some method of reducing the volume of thought. If surfing isn't available, there are a million other ways of accomplishing the same thing.

What I'm attempting to do is add another way of looking at suffering to the conversation. I'm attempting to frame it as a purely mechanical problem, because that opens the door to purely mechanical solutions, which tend to be very simple and accessible.

Say they start blaring an annoying commercial on my TV. I hit the mute button, right? Like that. Each of us just needs to find the mute button for our mind, that's all.

But, disidentification is not similar to what you are describing. Disidentification is a passive process of the mind. I mean, the chromic depressed person who identifies with their depression too strongly is going to not be able to address the activity partly due to their depression. So, how do you overcome this process of the mind that tells the depressive that they cannot address their depression?

the chronic depressed person who identifies with their depression too strongly is going to not be able to address the activity partly due to their depression. So, how do you overcome this process of the mind that tells the depressive that they cannot address their depression? — Posty McPostface

I think that to progress you're going to have to either go further into, or leave, the qualification of "depression." As it is, its ambiguity hangs all efforts. Various levels of depression are in fact different conditions, merely linked by some similarities. It's as if one said, "There are girls and boys. Because some boys have long hair, you cannot be a girl, but because girls have long hair, you cannot be a boy." Clearly this doesn't work, and the problem is the application of the wrong criteria at the wrong time, to the wrong conclusions.

Add to this "disidentification."

For some depressed people, the advice to "kick yourself out your front door," is enough, if they'll do it. Or structured activity. Or surfing. For others, meds. And for others, 24-7 observation in a locked facility.

and if the discussion is about disidentification, then let's leave depression behind, at least until we understand disidentification.

if the discussion is about disidentification, then let's leave depression behind, at least until we understand disidentification. — tim wood

Fine then, depression is a term laid with ambiguity, at least until it is experienced. So, then what do you have to say about disidentification?