• Noah33
    34
    The wealthy nor the impoverished, cannot deceitfully take what is not theirs; as this idea is impossible. The idea of wanting is a mere faculty of desire. It is the desire for one to want what is beneficial. However, man is satisfied by mere material representations, as they satisfy his long term desires e.g,. Hunger, fixed desires, constant. These material representations in pure form, correspond to things that also benefit man materially, or are a means to satisfying us materially (excluding artificial representations e.g,. money). In the artificial forms of material representations or objects of purpose, material things like money are accounted for. Money is by no means something that bears with it immediate satisfaction. Money is rather a purposeless material object that only, when applied, leads to a purpose within purposelessness. Meaning that money satisfies an objective goal to find what is materially beneficial e.g,. food, protection, etc. However, money itself shares no objective purpose. This form of material deception, then often, affects the wealthy class and the impoverished class. The impoverished class, sees the wealthy class as 'stealing" from it, and is therefore oppressive. However the wealthy class sees the impoverished class with the exact same view. What both of these representative classes do not see, is the fact that money is merely a false material representation of value. Therefore, money in a pure material form, is valueless. From this proposition, we can then conclude that no class can oppress another class with the superficial existence of 'money' as a mere concept.
  • Noah33
    34
    In addition to money being merely material, this concept is very similar to Immanuel Kant's Critique of Judgement. It correlates with Kant in the sense that it is critical of mere aesthetically beautiful forms. These forms share no rational purpose, besides their subjective universal communicability.
  • Blue Lux
    581
    Research corporations in the early 1900s in America, specifically 'scrip' or 'company scrip.' A wealthy class can and does oppress lower classes, not by means of money itself, that is absurd... Money is an inanimate being. Oppression comes via time, work and control of resources, which money merely represents.
    Have you read Marx?
  • Akanthinos
    1k
    However the wealthy class sees the impoverished class with the exact same view. What both of these representative classes do not see, is the fact that money is merely a false material representation of value.Noah33

    Ok. Can I have all your moneyz?

    :smirk:
  • Noah33
    34


    Re-read the text. There's no mention of corporatism or corporate enterprise. This is the examination of materialism and its value.
  • Noah33
    34


    Re-read if you have to. I discuss how material value holds resourcefulness as a means to worthy material satisfactions e.g,. food, lust, sexual gratification. However, materialism is simply a MEANS in this sense and remains only MEANS unless it holds direct value.
  • Noah33
    34


    So no, i wouldn't want you to take something that holds extended meaning, although I can object to it only being a means of necessity and not a necessity itself.
  • Noah33
    34


    I have read Marx along with positions on him. Read Marx's Concept of Man by Erich Fromm. This position explains Marx's conception of 'Alienation' along with the Hegelian concept, as a means to man being alienated from himself (species-life, species-being as 'collective'). In this book, Fromm lays down the psychoanalytical interpretation of Marx's Socialism as a revolt against the dehumanization of man through materialism. Namely one of these concepts is "money" as only being held as material capital. However, he states this form of materialism enslaves man as a mere product of his creation. This leads to the objectification of man, as he sees himself as separate from his concept of creation.
  • Blue Lux
    581
    I agree that a materialistic 'worldview' enslaves and is essentially fatalistic.
  • Akanthinos
    1k
    The hell is the difference between "resourcefullness" and "value"? If something is a resource for someone, that thing has value for him.

    Money is by no means something that bears with it immediate satisfaction.Noah33

    Clearly you never dated a stripper.
  • Sir2u
    3.2k
    Clearly you never dated a stripper.Akanthinos

    :rofl:
  • Noah33
    34


    Resourcefulness and value are distinct because of their nature. Resourcefulness is defined as supply. Value, is defined as the supplier. These two distinctions separate the meaning of what is being supplied, and what the material worth of what has been supplied is.
  • Noah33
    34


    Resourcefulness is not the same as value in the sense that a resource can have a definite purposive element. However, value is the simple judgement of that object that is resourceful. This is a simple question of semantics.
  • Akanthinos
    1k


    Resourcefulness and value are distinct because of their nature. Resourcefulness is defined as supply. Value, is defined as the supplier.Noah33

    You could hardly be more arbitrary.
  • Noah33
    34


    Immediate sexual gratification does not count as immediate satisfaction. True satisfaction is gained by means of satisfying a fixed desire i.e,. hunger.
  • Noah33
    34


    Please explain how this argument is arbitrary.
  • Blue Lux
    581
    Money is a means to an endless end, and therefore it is the focal point of 'work' and 'resources' as if work and resources are endless. This is the illusion. And this is not only why money has absolutely no real meaning, only an artificial and synthetic meaning of sign, but why materialism is incapable of giving any existentially significant meaning. Meaning must be created. Nothing is inherently meaningful. Money is given a meaning by those who do not need it for those who need it. It has become more and more invasive as well with the constant production of absolutely meaningless things that attain a meaning by simple association with other things people find meaningful, like fame, popularity or novelty. A great book called Simulacra and Simulation explains this in greater detail.
  • Akanthinos
    1k
    Please explain how this argument is arbitrary.Noah33

    Immediate sexual gratification does not count as immediate satisfaction. True satisfaction is gained by means of satisfying a fixed desire i.e,. hunger.Noah33

    This categorization is purely arbitrary.
  • Noah33
    34


    The abundance of what is resourceful in nature, must follow a naturalistic faculty. This means that an object can only be resourceful if it contains within itself a rationally natural purpose to it. The architectural construction of a house is a perfect example of this juxtaposition of purpose. A house can be used to store different items of human purpose or human need, even though one may not be willing to live in this space. However the rational motive applied by cognition to this 'house', depends entirely on the buyer and his predetermined motive for the object in question. Money in this sense is not only synthetic and illusion, but it is also a treacherous thing. Meaning must not be created without purpose like money, as this is applying human cognition to an object, and therefore only applying purpose to something that may not have purpose (meaning).
  • Noah33
    34


    No, it is reasoned. When you dissect the meaning of linguistic interpretation you realize that many different interpretations can be made from different words.
  • Noah33
    34


    There is no absolute definition of "resourceful" or "value" in philosophy. I have acknowledged the linguistic meaning here, and stated that they both have similar standards and relations. However, nothing is absolute in this sense.
  • Noah33
    34


    By this argument I could call your statement arbitrary. It's about the interpretation of what is worth, and my proposition is simply a proposition. However, if you wish to tell me how sexual gratification that is artificially produced is not secondary in importance, then you can do so.
  • BC
    13.1k
    "The conception of the wealthy 'taking from the impoverished' is a ludicrous belief" he said.

    So let's try it the other way around: "Give me your money -- all of it, right now. I'm impoverished. I don't care what your philosophy is, how you got your money, or what you were planning to do with it. Just hand it over. Cash will do nicely. If you don't give it to me, we (me and some well armed associates) will just take it. Hey, taking money from the rich is an honorable revolutionary action. It's traditional. And rational too. What's the point of making the peasants hand over their scarcely edible spoiled potatoes?

    Once you give us your money and are poor, you will be in line to inherit the kingdom of heaven, or some such thing.

    Lucky you!
  • Noah33
    34


    I agree. If I am interpreting you correctly this is what I said.
  • Noah33
    34
    One thing that is also important, is the elucidation of how 'Impoverished' as a system of oppression is defined. One could simply be impoverished from his lack of spirit or will (poverty of one's soul), or one could suffer from the impoverishment of his morality (if we are referring to no position of moral relativism). Then of course the common material explanation behind poverty as having a lack of a material necessity. The latter is a judgment over whether such material system is universally valid (imp-acting everyone) or whether it is only relative to one man or his group's interpretation of value. If poverty itself is based up-on the false system of money, then it alone cannot exist a phenomenon.
  • Akanthinos
    1k


    "The abundance of what is resourceful in nature, must follow a naturalistic faculty. This means that an object can only be resourceful if it contains within itself a rationally natural purpose to it."

    This is were I must disagree completely. Natural objects do not have a purpose, they have a history, or a trajectory, but certainly not a purpose. Something is a resource for someone in that this someone's umwelt and ontic constitution allows for that thing to gain value. Folic acid is an important resource to a tick, it has value for it, because half of a tick's umwelt is about using folic acid to represent the world. Folic acid barely has a value for me, except as a marker of effort and bad hygiene.

    But folic acid has no purpose in itself. Just a list of observed characteristics and interactions with other chemicals.
  • Akanthinos
    1k


    "Immediate sexual gratification does not count as immediate satisfaction. True satisfaction is gained by means of satisfying a fixed desire i.e,. hunger."

    Satisfaction is satisfaction is .... If it wasn't true satisfication, it wouldn't satisfy.
  • Noah33
    34


    If you examine the natural faculties of objects and their disposition to other objects, like you have done here, you do get to a point in which objects in themselves, may serve no objective purpose. Objective p-urpose as defined, is anything which does not effect all concepts or objects on a universal basis. However, subjective universal validity does exist. Subjective universality as a concept, entails that different objects that share a similar relationship, may be classified taxonomically in this perspective as simply sharing a similar concept in nature. So in a simplification, what may have an impact on you or me is not universally valid by any means, unless it was a subjective interpretation of universal validity e.g,. all humans have hands (excluding abnormalities). Those chemicals that are classified scientifically by their respected taxonomical classifications, exhibit uses in themselves, as they provide the necessary stimuli for the object in question (tick) or resource (Folic Acid).
  • Noah33
    34


    The phrasing I presented on sexual gratification and satisfaction was poor. What was meant to be interp-reted, was that certain forms of satisfaction are worth more then other forms of satisfaction. This is p-roven by the mere fact that satisfaction is not a constant desire, as it changes from subjective interpretation often. What satisfies me today, could maybe not satisfy me tomorrow is the dilemma here, and it's important. Only the forms of universal satisfaction like hunger, taste, and pleasure as aforementioned, are fundamental. Forms of satisfaction that have a natural motive grounded in their motive e.g,. sexual gratification from prostitution, is exploitation.
  • Blue Lux
    581
    My name is Noah too btw.

    And in a nutshell, though it is off topic, I see your picture of Heidegger.

    So...

    What is the meaning of being?
  • Noah33
    34


    I myself am not necessarily a fan of Martin Heidegger, mostly because of his postmodernist persp-ective. However, Being can be defined in Being and Time as simply Being in itself. This means that Being cannot be determined by any other standards besides the fact that beings are beings in themselves. It sounds odd, but his main rational behind it is that a Being is not the literal Being like a man or a woman, but rather something of a conscious nature. Sense is also a large aspect of this as a motivation behind Being. I haven't read Heidegger in a long time, and I will p-robably have to revisit it eventually.
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