• schopenhauer1
    9.9k
    A lot of people on this forum with a science inclination, like to discuss the topic of entropy. Some people even say, the generalized telos of the universe is to use up its free energy and to eventually end up in some version of a "Heat Death" whereby all work is used up across the universe and there is no processes left to perform. In this view, humans are localized versions of entropy. To the generalized telos principle, humans, by creating localized order, are increasing the general disorder and energy of the universe writ large.

    What does this mean then for humans- these doers of work? Well, when tied with the principle of philosophical pessimism, it implies a good deal. Instead of Schopenhauer's overarching Will, a monistic noumenal reality, we have an overarching Entropy, a monistic phenomenal (i.e. scientific) reality. Just as Will is characterized as striving-but-for-nothing causing the modus operandi for all animals (including humans) to strive forward, procreate, survive (and entertain/maintain in the human's case), the localized negentropy of the animal is characterized by all that work of the body/mind to survive, maintain, entertain. The stresses of life, the stresses of society, the stresses of psychology, the stresses of circumstances of the animal vs. the environment, this is all just localized negentropy (contributing its part in the universal entropy). The quietus of non-existence interrupted for the work-to-b-done. Yet we can see this from the internal view. We see the very essence of our striving in our individual goals, social organization, and the individual restless mind that needs stimulus and entertainment.

    We are the universe's self-reflecting strivers. Pursuing due to the unrecognized underlying principle of entropy. We must work, work, work..
  • Shawn
    12.6k
    We must work, work, work..schopenhauer1

    No. Work is becoming redundant with the advent of AI. So, no.
  • schopenhauer1
    9.9k
    No. Work is becoming redundant with the advent of AI. So, no.Posty McPostface

    Work is just one manifestation of work.. And even if you were completely right about AI utopia.. it ain't happening in yours or my time.
  • Shawn
    12.6k
    Work is just one manifestation of work..schopenhauer1

    What does that even mean?
  • schopenhauer1
    9.9k
    What does that even mean?Posty McPostface

    We strive for goals ceaslessly (unless we are asleep/coma/unconscious). Perhaps the root of existential types of angst.
  • Shawn
    12.6k


    Yes, though some people seem to just want to get by in life. What do you tell those types?
  • schopenhauer1
    9.9k
    Yes, though some people seem to just want to get by in life. What do you tell those types?Posty McPostface

    Still got to have goals to maintain. Doesn't have to be lofty goals. If you are a human with language, enculturated in a social setting, you will have goals at almost all times.
  • Shawn
    12.6k


    Like what? My only goal is not to be sad or unhappy. Meaning the less goals I have the better off I will be as per Buddhism.
  • schopenhauer1
    9.9k
    Like what? My only goal is not to be sad or unhappy. Meaning the less goals I have the better off I will be as per Buddhism.Posty McPostface

    What were some things you did today? What will you do tomorrow? This week? This weekend? This year? Each activity, even if just sitting under a tree, requires a goal.
  • Shawn
    12.6k


    Sure, those are small goals that are attainable like going to see your doctor or a visit at the dentist. What's so insurmountable about such goals?
  • schopenhauer1
    9.9k
    Sure, those are small goals that are attainable like going to see your doctor or a visit at the dentist. What's so insurmountable about such goals?Posty McPostface

    Who said anything about insurmountable. More like innumerable, unending, ceaseless.
  • Shawn
    12.6k


    You can limit their amount though...
  • schopenhauer1
    9.9k
    You can limit their amount though...Posty McPostface

    Then it is the ceaseless striving for not striving.
  • Shawn
    12.6k


    But it is good, no?
  • schopenhauer1
    9.9k
    But it is good, no?Posty McPostface

    Not that we are put in the situation to overcome, I would say not.
  • Shawn
    12.6k


    What's the alternative though?
  • schopenhauer1
    9.9k
    What's the alternative though?Posty McPostface

    Clearly striving for more work to do to keep us occupied and focused on something, right? Just kidding, that is the common "pragmatic" response. Perhaps seeing the world as it is, rather than just following the standard pragmatic response?
  • Shawn
    12.6k


    Pragmatism would say something like, distract yourself with more enjoyable things, with a taste of utilitarianism. Otherwise, focus on the problem and don't entertain it... Would be my take.
  • schopenhauer1
    9.9k
    Pragmatism would say something like, distract yourself with more enjoyable things, with a taste of utilitarianism. Otherwise, focus on the problem and don't entertain it... Would be my take.Posty McPostface

    Yes, that's essentially my version. Except, more enjoyable things is just what we do, because we are little entropy machines, working our little worker goals until we are unable to any longer. Focus on problem and don't entertain it though doesn't make sense with how you stated it.
  • Shawn
    12.6k


    Yeah, I meant to say that by focusing on the problem you eliminate it by not entertaining it. Kinda Zen koan'ish?
  • schopenhauer1
    9.9k
    Yeah, I meant to say that by focusing on the problem you eliminate it by not entertaining it. Kinda Zen?Posty McPostface

    I still don't get what you're getting at, but maybe that's the Zen part?
  • Shawn
    12.6k


    Well, it's mostly by removing yourself from the problem by not entertaining it by doing so that you address the problem. Hence, yes, the Zen part.
  • schopenhauer1
    9.9k
    Well, it's mostly by removing yourself from the problem by not entertaining it by doing so that you address the problem. Hence, yes, the Zen part.Posty McPostface

    Ah yes. Well, unfortunately, you cannot remove yourself from your goals. The problem is the need for problems, in a very general way.
  • Shawn
    12.6k


    I wouldn't say that all goals create problems. Certain goals like striving for happiness, yes. But striving to avoid unhappiness, not so much. What do you think?
  • schopenhauer1
    9.9k
    What do you think?Posty McPostface

    There's probably a disconnect in what people are trying to achieve and what is actually happening in real time.
  • Shawn
    12.6k


    Interesting. So we change our goals as we go by. I guess it depends on the amount of change desired by each goal and if it's attainable. I try and stick to small goals that are within my grasp.
  • Shawn
    12.6k
    So, talking about goals. How do we determine which are within grasp or not?
  • schopenhauer1
    9.9k
    So, talking about goals. How do we determine which are within grasp or not?Posty McPostface

    It's not about what goals are attainable. It's about needing to pursue goals at all.. Clipping your nails, getting food, getting to such and such place, what you will do at such and such place. People automatically go right to sub-Saharan African levels of starvation in a rundown village with dirty water. ANY goal- survival or what some would deem as trivial, frivolous, or even the pursuit of entertainment.
  • Shawn
    12.6k


    But it's a trite thing to say about life. Entropy eventually negates all our goals but it's not at a faster rate than what we can muster against.
  • schopenhauer1
    9.9k
    But it's a trite thing to say about life. Entropy eventually negates all our goals but it's not at a faster rate than what we can muster against.Posty McPostface

    Yeah, we won't see the results of our negentropic > entropic writ large activities. Rather, we are simply living out a manifestation of it. As with Schop's Will are the Universe's Entropy.
  • Shawn
    12.6k


    Yes, but those things make goals worthwhile. Without entropy the world would be a boring place, perhaps moreso than it already is.
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