• Michael Ossipoff
    1.7k
    This is about medical ethics. It’s a blatant conflict-of-interest matter that I’ve never heard mentioned, and so I’d like to mention it.
    .
    Let me start by telling what’s been happening to my girlfriend, to illustrate the situation, because it’s a sure bet that her experience isn’t unique.
    .
    Zoloft and Xanax were prescribed for Janet about 3 years ago. She was having anxiety-attacks that turned out to have a medical cause, which no longer remains.
    .
    But because she was left on those drugs for so long, she’d addicted to them. As you might know, drugs such as those are highly addictive.
    .
    She tried to just quit, and the symptoms were too harsh. We’ve since read that overly fast withdrawal of those drugs can be fatal. When she mentioned to her doctor that she wanted to quit the drugs, he put her on a taper of his devising. It started with an abrupt 25% reduction in the Zoloft dosage-rate. Again, the withdrawal symptoms were harsh and alarming, and the doctor agreed to stopping the taper.
    .
    So I suggested, to Janet and to the doctor, a genuinely gradual taper. …a smooth exponential taper.
    .
    The doctor agreed to it, and we began. On that taper, Janet has reduced her Zoloft dosage-rate by 43%, with no symptoms whatsoever.
    .
    It’s based on an ideal continuously exponentially decreasing dosage-rate. An exponentially-decreasing function decreases by the same percentage each day (or for any equal duration).
    .
    Each day, Janet’s number of pills is such that, for each day, it puts her at, rounded up to the nearest integer, the cumulative (non-integer, of course) total pill number that is the integral of the exponential rate-function, up to that day.
    .
    As I said, we, so far, have thereby reduced her Zoloft dosage-rate by 43% with no symptoms whatsoever.
    .
    For the exponential function’s constant, k, in exp(kt), we chose a (negative) value that would (gradually of course) halve Janet’s dosage-rate every year. That gradualness seems necessary, because she’s been habituated to the drugs for years, and so the halving should happen on a commensurate time-scale.
    .
    So far so good, but then Janet’s doctor retired, and his successor told us. “I don’t do it that way.” He insisted on abruptly reducing the Xanax by half, saying that we could raise her Zoloft dose-rate back up to 75% of its initial value if we want. Her previous doctor had told us to taper the Zoloft first, and that’s what we’d been successfully doing.
    .
    We immediately got a different doctor, but she refused to prescribe more than 75% of Janet’s initial Xanax dose-rate, thereby imposing a 25% reduction like the one that had caused Janet harsh symptoms when we tried it before. Result: Convulsions in sleep, and difficulty sleeping.
    .
    We’ve asked these doctors, “Why is a gentle, symptom-free taper a problem to you??”. No answer.
    .
    Yeah? Well here’s a clue:
    .
    The doctors of course say, “If there’s any problem with this taper, be sure to make an appointment to come in.” …so that the doctor can offer counsel, maybe tinker with his hard-“taper”, and maybe prescribe this or that palliative drug to ease the ordeal.
    .
    Visit-appointments, and money, are made when there’s a problem that needs treating. If the patient is on a symptom-free taper, that doesn’t generate any appointments, or any money for the doctor. So (for some doctors at least) there’s a monetary motive to make a problem for the patient to keep coming in to be treated for.
    .
    Thus, the old saying, “Follow the money” provides the explanation for why a gentle, symptom-free taper is a problem to some doctors.
    .
    I’m not saying that all doctors are unethical, but, in Janet’s experience, some are.
    .
    I’d like to put my taper-program around. As programs go, it’s very brief. So let me describe it here:
    .
    First, a few symbols and what they stand for:
    .
    t is the day-number in the taper. t = 1 on the taper’s 1st day.
    .
    k is the constant in the expression “exp(kt). (I’ll later tell how to choose k)
    .
    r is the initial dosage rate, in pills (or half-pills) per day.
    .
    S is the number of the pills (or half-pills) taken so far.
    .
    d is the number of pills or half-pills to be taken on a particular day.
    ----------------
    Maybe “pseudocode” is the word for the following program-description:
    .
    r is the number of pills (or half-pills) being taken daily before the beginning of the taper.
    .
    Set S to 0.
    .
    Set t to 1.
    .
    [line-label] d = 1 + INT((r/k)(exp(kt) - 1) - S)
    .
    if d < 1 then exit
    .
    print t, d
    .
    linefeed
    .
    S = S+d
    .
    t = t+1
    .
    go to labeled line
    .
    end of program listing
    --------------------------
    To determine what k should be:
    .
    Suppose you want to reduce the dosage rate by a factor of F, in t days:
    .
    k = ln(F)/t
    .
    (“ln” stands for “natural logarithm”)
    .
    Because F is less than 1, k will be negative.
    .
    For example, say you want to reduce the dosage-rate by half, every year:
    .
    k = ln(.5)/365.25 = - .001897734
    .
    I suggest that k value, for a halving-time of one year, as a general 1st-trial tentative tapering suggestion, when the person has been habituated to the drug for just a few years. …because the halving-time should be commensurate with the habituation-time.
    .
    As I said, my girlfriend, using that k value, reduced her Zoloft dosage-rate by 43%, from 100 mg. to 57 mg., with no symptoms whatsoever.
    .
    But some people have been smoking for lots of decades, and, for them, maybe the halving-time should be longer than a year. …likewise for any substance that have been used for more than just a few years.
    .
    For such a longer habituation-period, it might be best to cautiously start with a halving period that’s at least a large fraction of the habituation-time. …and of course regard it as just a cautious tentative first trial taper.
    .
    Obviously, if there are withdrawal symptoms, the dosage-rate should be returned to its pre-taper value, and a taper with a longer halving-period should be cautiously tried. This is intended as a completely symptom-free gentle taper.
    .
    …and of course a doctor should be consulted (but preferably not a cold-turkey doctor).
    .
    I emphasize that I’ve never heard of, or found any Internet reference of, a doctor suggesting a taper as gentle as the one with a one year halving-period.
    .
    In fact, of course any taper should be done cautiously, while watching for withdrawal symptoms.
    .
    Equivalent years:
    .
    How much of the substance will be taken during the taper? I speak of “equivalent-years”, by which I mean number of years at the initial (pre-taper) dosage-rate, that would result in the same amount of the substance that is taken during the taper.
    .
    Equivalent Years = (-1/k) * (1/365.25)
    .
    For example, for the k that gives a 1 year halving-period, the equivalent-years is 1.44 years.
    .
    …meaning that the amount of the drug that’s taken during the taper is equal to the amount that would be taken during 1.44 years at the initial (pre-taper) rate.
    ---------------------------------------
    Feel free to use, share, post or publicize the above-described taper-program anywhere, anytime.
    .
    (In fact, please do !!)
    .
    Michael Ossipoff
  • Michael Ossipoff
    1.7k
    I'd said:

    I had an un-matched parenthesis typo in my formula for d.. That has been fixed in an edit.

    No, there was no error. It was right the first time. I've changed it back in another edit.

    Michael Ossipoff
  • BC
    13.2k
    I have a 30 year history of taking antidepressants and benzodiazapine for anxiety. i've tapered off 3 different benzos without any difficulty, and I tapered off tricyclic antidepressants (imipramine) 2 or 3 years after I started. I've switched antidepressants a number of times, and haven't tried withdrawing from SSRIs until now.

    I've been taking venlafaxine (Effexor) for maybe 13 years, and Surzone immediately prior. Both of these are SSRIs. I am finding it impossible to go cold turkey; I experience some psychological distress, and physical symptoms which I can only describe as 'odd' within 48 hours of the last dose. By 72 hours I definitely feel ill. I haven't made it past 96 hours.

    My understanding of benzodiazepines is that they are definitely habit forming, if not addictive. I didn't feel like I was addicted when I tapered off them. Antidepressants are not supposed to be addicting, but that probably applies only to short term studies (<1 year). I definitely feel hooked now.

    My guess is that a very long gradually sloping taper is necessary after long usage (like, decades).

    I can't tell whether I should attempt to get off. On 75mg of venlafaxine I feel really good. Would I feel good after taking 6 months to a year to taper off the drug completely? Don't know. Cost isn't a problem, so far, and it doesn't seem like I am experiencing adverse health outcomes. So, ???
  • Michael Ossipoff
    1.7k


    Whatever you do, don't even consider cold-turkey, or the kind of fast withdrawal that doctors seem to like so much.

    If the choice were between staying on one of those drugs, or else doing a doctor's fast, symptom-ridden tapers, then I'd stay on the drug. All the medical articles that I've found on the web agree that a fast withdrawal is a lot more dangerous than the drug.

    Of course I'd suggest a very gradual taper, with a halving-time that's comparable to the the habituation-time, the duration you've been getting habituated to the drug.

    I don't claim to have medical knowledge, but I fear that doctors have something else too--a profit motive conflict of interest.

    So I can only speak from the particular version of common-sense that's from my experiences.If you've been on Effexor for 13 years, and something similar before that (for how long before?), then doesn't that mean that, to be on the safe side, all of that combined duration should be counted in the habituation-time?

    Should the habituation-time be considered to be 20 or 30 years? If so, then shouldn't the halving-time be at least a fairly good fraction of that? A one-year halving time works fine for Janet with Zoloft, which she'd been on for about 2 years when she started the taper. I don't know--does that suggest a halving-time of half the habituation-time, as a reasonable tentative, experimental starting taper?

    ...until such time as there are any withdrawal symptoms. The whole point of the gentle gradual taper is that there aren't supposed to be any withdrawal symptoms. I'm not a doctor, but I bet that a halving-time equal to half of the habituation-time might be symptom-free. ...as it has been for Janet.

    Of course if the halving-time is going to be 10 or 15 years, and if you're going to live significantly longer than that, you definitely benefit from the taper.

    One thing I want to add: it might, at first, seem as if a long halving-time doesn't offer much reward. But that isn't so. It does offer reward. During Janet's taper (before her doctors took it away by imposing their own cold-turkey on her), we'd been marking, on the calendar, the number of pills to take each day. There'll be two pill-amounts that you alternate between. Well, in the space of a month, the pattern of (say) the 3-pill days and the 2-pill days will change a few times during that month. June started with 3-2-2-3 as the pattern of 2-pill and 3-pill days. But, around mid-month there started being 3-2-2-2-3, which was soon alternating with 3-2-2-3. By the end of the month, 3-2-2-2-2-3 starts to show up.

    And that's with a whole year as the halving-time.

    My point is that the results are very visible and noticeable on the calendar.

    ...and that, if the halving-time is well-chosen, the calendar is the only thing that reminds you that you're in a taper at all...because there are absolutely no withdrawal symptoms whatsoever.

    Michael Ossipoff
  • BC
    13.2k
    This all makes total sense. It has been my understanding that abrupt withdrawal of antidepressants -- or abruptly switching from one type of antidepressant (say tricyclics to SSRIs) should always be avoided. Same for benzos and the major tranquilizers like thorazine, and narcotics.

    And the same for a lot of other types of drugs, like epileptic control drugs, lithium, and so on.

    Some doctors may have vested interests in drug companies, but for most doctors it would be nothing more compromising than having stock in their portfolio, and since doctors are the only ones who can Rx medicines, the conflict is probably unavoidable. I suppose their stock in Pfizer, Astra Zeneca, Sandoz, Abbott, Bristol Meyers Squibb, Bayer, et al could be in a trust. Don't hold your breath.

    At my age (71) I probably don't have time to complete a leisurely taper--which is fine. I have no objection to taking affordable medicine that seems to be keeping me on the level.
  • Michael Ossipoff
    1.7k


    There's one particularly big conflict of interest: If someone is feeling sick, having convulsions, during the doctor's "taper", they're advised to make an appointment, so that that oh-so-caring doctor can help the patient with his/her pain and suffering.

    In order to have that, there has to be pain and suffering. People who are well aren't profitable to a doctor. If the patient is kept a bit sick, then the doctor has a cash-cow. There's no money in someone who doesn't need a doctor.

    More tomorrow.

    Michael Ossipoff
  • ArguingWAristotleTiff
    5k

    What your girlfriend is going through infuriates me with the medical community. My Dr and I talked about this reduction by 30%, for three months and finally off the med completely. Benzos, Opiates and all their cousins qualify for this indiscriminate reduction that is determined by numbers and not the patient sitting in front of the Doctor.

    I have been on Xannax and Klonopin everyday for the last 25 years for anxiety, rumination and OCD. I was prescribed these meds by a Psychiatrist and when he retired, my new Doc prescribed the same way.

    Now, (thank god in heaven) the Doc that I see is the one that told me I was going to die if I stayed on the Oxycontin I had been on for 2.5 yrs after breaking my back in a high speed, high impact horseback riding accident. When he told me that, I said that my regular Doctor (because I was at an urgent care as I had run out of my Oxy) told me when I asked him how get off of Oxy because it was only cutting 8 hrs of pain and it was prescribed for 12 hours of pain control, he upped my dose to three times in a 24 hr period. It was above what should have been prescribed but not an illegal amount.

    The Urgent care Doc was stunned and said I am telling you, you need to get off this shit or your going to die. I returned to that Urgent care Doc after consulting my prescribing Doc when I asked again how to get off this Oxy and he said if you really want to quit, just stop taking it. :scream:

    My Mom who was a nurse for half her life from Level 1 Trauma center nurse to Cardiac ICU, KNEW better than to tell someone on Oxy for 2.5 yrs to just quit, without tapering was malpractice and she went to his office and let it be known that she was filing with the state about his treatment.

    It took me 2.5 years seeing an Addiction and Pain management specialist to get tapered off of Suboxone. Even after 2.5 yrs of tapering down, it took me 45 days, functioning at 15% of my daily life, before I got my first Dopamine dump. My body finally began to begin meeting the demand for Dopamine, I was coming alive again.

    Now I am not saying that alternative pain medication is for everyone but I can tell you that I can no longer have Opiates, IB profin or Aspirin. I have Tylenol and Cannabis for pain control either chronic or acute pain. From bone grafting in my mouth to chronic back pain, cannabis buffers that pain by filling the endocannabinoid receptor but it is not as strong as Opiates but it is not physically addictive either.

    Right now anxiety is not a qualifying condition for medical cannabis but I can tell you as a patient for other conditions that cannabis plays a role in bringing down the anxiety because I have been on the same dose of Benzos for 25 yrs, never an increase even though life stress and tolerance have gone up with time.

    One rule that my Psych and current Doc agree with is that you only change one med at a time and let that settle before messing with any other med the patient might be taking, otherwise there is confusion as to what medication change is truly affecting the patient.

    If I am not mistaken, Pain specialists and Addiction specialists are allowed a little more latitude when it comes to prescribing narcotics.
  • BC
    13.2k
    It's a conundrum.

    If we eliminated the last century of medical progress, what would be different? Many people would still live healthy long lives. Better sanitation and food production are responsible for that. What would be different is that people who became very sick, or were seriously injured, would die more often and sooner, or would be far more debilitated.

    So, we are fortunate in many ways, but pain is a problem. For moderate chronic pain there are good medications -- the Nonsteroidal Anti-inflammatory Drugs like aspirin, Ibuprofen, naproxen, and celecoxib, For short term severe pain there are opiates -- and they are safe and effective--in the short run. For longterm severe pain, we run into the limiting problem of reduced effectiveness over time and addiction. There don't seem to be many effective drugs for long-term severe pain that are non-opiate.

    One of the problems with doctors (dentists too) is that they have usually not experienced first hand any of the problems which patients have, or the therapies they prescribe to their patients. Many doctors don't get to know their patients very well, either, or visa versa.
  • Michael Ossipoff
    1.7k



    Yes, if the taper's halving-time would have to be comparable to your current life-expectancy, then there'd be a case to leave things as they are.

    Janet will be 70 next year. (I'm 73). In addition to her age, she has a delicate and sensitive nervous-system, due to childhood Scarlet-Fever and Rheumatic Fever. Due to vulnerability from those fevers, the physical stress of childbirth, in a previous marriage, caused a sudden onset of Spamodic Dysphonia, which persists to this day. ...demonstrating that, with her vulnerable nervous-system, physical stress (of which forcible Xanax withdrawal is an instance) can do a lot of harm to her.

    The important thing is that you (Bitter Crank) are fortunate to have a doctor who isn't insisting on cold-turkeying (fast-withdrawing) you from the drugs. You don't know how fortunate that is until you have the involuntary-fast-withdrawal doctors like Janet has been suffering from.

    I suggest that it's very important to not let any of your doctors know that you've even considered tapering-off, because that could trigger a forced involuntary withholding of the drugs. That situation is the last thing that you want.

    Michael Ossipoff
  • gloaming
    128
    I have little experience in this, but I do know that the human brain has two main types of cholinergic neuroreceptors, muscarinic and nicotinic. The latter, as you might guess, is key in addiction to nicotine. The human brain effectively forgets how to make its own and relies on serum levels of nicotine to be delivered to the brain for its use via smoking. It makes nicotine addiction about the most terrible addiction and one very difficult to overcome.


    A very few people have quit cold-turkey. Most simply cannot. They have to have substitutes, a lot of support, and to slowly wean themselves off of both the chemistry of tobacco addiction and its social 'chemistry'. I think that the same would be true of any addiction or dependency, as is the case with so many brain-chemistry-modifying drugs. The gradient to reduce the dosages should be gradual, meaning small steps and over a longer period than six to ten weeks necessarily. I don't know what empirical evidence there is to say that a person using Zoloft for 10 years will need a longer period of reduction than someone who has been on it for three years...but maybe that's the case. I would think one would need a bare minimum of about a year to get rid of it.


    I also understand the wisdom of waiting for a person to get well-used to changes of any kind. As a sufferer of severe sleep apnea, we soon learn that even tiny changes to one's pressure support with PAP machines can have serious consequences, but one doesn't rule the experiment a failure on the basis of a single night's apnea/hypopnea index (AHI) rising above 5/hr. One goes a full week or so to see how reliable each night's count is, and what the variance is relative to the week's average, the month's average, and so on. A single night doesn't constitute a trend. But a string of really bad weeks trying to get off Zoloft, starting with an almost irrational/irresponsible prescription of an initial reduction of a whopping 25% borders on criminal, or at best incompetent in my opinion.
  • Michael Ossipoff
    1.7k


    What your girlfriend is going through infuriates me with the medical community.
    .
    Yes, it has infuritated me, and greatly disappointed me too. But it’s reassuring to know that I’m not the only one who notices that high-handed, uncaring dishonesty among “care” providers.
    .
    My Dr and I talked about this reduction by 30%, for three months and finally off the med completely. Benzos, Opiates and all their cousins qualify for this indiscriminate reduction that is determined by numbers and not the patient sitting in front of the Doctor.
    .
    Yes, the doctor can sit there and play “power” with someone else’s suffering and damage-risk. …and say, “I’m going to lower your dosage 25%.” It’s easy for him or her, because he or she isn’t the one taking the risk or suffering the withdrawal-symptoms.

    he said if you really want to quit, just stop taking it.
    .
    Easy for him to say, when he isn’t having the withdrawal symptoms.

    .
    My Mom who was a nurse for half her life from Level 1 Trauma center nurse to Cardiac ICU, KNEW better than to tell someone on Oxy for 2.5 yrs to just quit, without tapering was malpractice and she went to his office and let it be known that she was filing with the state about his treatment.
    .
    Yes, we’re considering pursuing a malpractice case against the doctor who, when replacing her previous doctor when he retired, told Janet that he was only going to prescribe a 50% lower Xanax dosage.
    .
    He’s interrupted and interfered with a completely successful taper…a completely symptom-free gentle taper that had already reduced Janet’s Zoloft use by 43% (the doctor had told us to taper Zoloft first, and then Xanax).
    .
    …and he imposed an involuntary sudden, abrupt 50% withdrawal from Xanax, which has caused convulsions, sleep-loss, and who knows what other adverse internal effects.
    .
    If that isn’t malpractice, then what is?
    .
    One rule that my Psych and current Doc agree with is that you only change one med at a time and let that settle before messing with any other med the patient might be taking
    .
    Unfortunately Janet’s doctors don’t understand that.
    .
    Here’s the accurate, realistic account of what happened:
    .
    When Janet first agreed to take the Zoloft and Xanax, no one told her that she’d become addicted and then later be cold-turkeyed off them, with convulsions and sleep-loss, etc.
    .
    She began the use of those prescribed drugs in good faith, trusting the doctors who advised it.
    .
    Now, what’s this??: She has to get someone’s permission in order to keep taking those drugs that were pushed on her, addicting her to them?
    .
    “First we promote them to you, and then, when you’re addicted, you have to get our permission to be allowed to have them?”
    .
    “…permission that we won’t give, so that you’ll have to have convulsions and sleep-loss. So that you’ll be sick, and have to make more appointments, profitable to us, so that we can help you with your symptoms and make more money off of you.”
    .
    In the words of the doctor who replaced her retiring doctor, and imposed the 50% withdrawal:
    .
    “It’s going to be hard on you.”
    .
    …but what did she do to deserve that?
    .
    It couldn’t be any more obvious that there’ something very wrong morally here.
    .
    Michael Ossipoff
  • Michael Ossipoff
    1.7k
    an almost irrational/irresponsible prescription of an initial reduction of a whopping 25% borders on criminal, or at best incompetent in my opinion.gloaming

    Agreed.

    I'd say more than borders on criminal.

    Is criminal, based on the account of events that I described in my previous post here, and the doctors' profit motive in keeping a patient sick, in order to have a cash-cow. ...the reason why a successful gentle symptom-free taper is unacceptable to most doctors.

    Michael Ossipoff
  • Michael Ossipoff
    1.7k
    I'd like to correct a program-bug in the pseudode-program that I posted.

    Where I said:

    "Exit if d < 1"

    I should have said:

    Exit if S > -r/k

    -r/k is the asymptotic limit, approached but never quite reached, of the integral of the exponentially-decreasing rate-function.

    When S exceeds that, that's when the taper is completed.

    Michael Ossipoff
  • Michael Ossipoff
    1.7k
    I should say something about the duration of the taper, and what the matter of concluding the taper.

    How long would the it take for the taper to reach its own natural conclusion?

    As I mentioned in my previous post, the time to exit the computer program is when the total number of pills taken is greater than -r/k, the asymptotic limit of the integral of the exponentially-decreasing rate-function.

    Thoughout the taper, the total number of pills taken is being daily adjusted to be the equal to that integral, rounded up to the next higher integer. When that total number of pills taken eventuall is greater than -r/k, then it will forever be a fraction of a pill greater than that integral, without any more pills being taken.

    Here's how long that would take, in days, if we disregard a fraction of a day, and if we disregard a fraction of a pill, in the total number of pills taken:

    t = (1/k)ln(1+(k/r)(-r/k)) days.

    So, to get the total tapering-time in years, just divide that by 365.25

    But what if you wanted to find exactly the day number of the day on which the taper's last pill would be taken? That would be:

    Ceiling((1/k)ln(1+(k/r)Floor(-r/k)))

    Whichever formula you evaluate, it turns out that, if someone started with a daily dose of 3 Zoloft pills, with one pill as the smallest unit (pills aren't being split in half), then the last pill of the taper would be taken more than 10 years, nearly 11 years, after the beginning of the taper.

    At that time, the exponential fuinction's dosage-rate would amount to about a pill per year. (...though it would probably be a little lower between the last pill and the 2nd-to-last pill)

    Obviously that's a very ridiculously low rate, and obviously there'd be no need to carry out the taper to that low rate.

    An international expert on Benzodiazepines, the class of drugess that represents the most widespread prescribed-drug addiction-problem, has suggested a dosage-rate at which most people can safely and easily quit. So of course the natural suggestion would be to carry out the exponential taper until that dose-rate is reached, and then quit.

    But maybe someone is tapering from a drug for which such a recommendation hasn't been made. Or maybe the person just doesn't want to take anyone's word for it.

    In that case, another possibility would be to continue the exponential taper until the time between pills or half-pills is so very ridiculously long that it feels obvious that it would be safe to quit.

    (Of course it goes without saying that any quitting of the taper should be tentative and experimental, and that that quitting should be reversed, and that, at the first sign of a withdrawal symptom, the taper should be resumed from at or before the point at which it was quit.)

    In fact, as ridiculous as the dose-rate might be when the taper reaches its own natural conclusion, one obvious possibiity would be to just carry it through to its natural conclusion, The total amount of the drug taken still is no more than the amount that the pre-taper rate would give you in (-1/k)*(1/365.25) years. Whether that seems like a lot depends of course on how long the habituation has been going on.

    Michael Ossipoff
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