• frank
    808
    but aren't you the camera-man in this movie?
  • 0 thru 9
    455

    Maybe... not sure. Could you please expand on that a little?
  • frank
    808
    I was just thinking of being lost in the crowd. Unseen, like a ghost. Versus being the center of attention.

    Some people feed off of being the center and others become exhausted from doing it. I get exhausted and just sit there silently while my friends talk. In the process, I become the center of attention because I'm silent. Sometimes.

    What are you doing when you become central?
  • 0 thru 9
    455

    :up: Thanks for the reply (and the attention). I see what you mean now. Boy, that’s a big subject. Probably could be a separate thread eventually. On attention and feedback, and our needs. You’ve probably heard the saying “where attention goes, energy flows”. That kind of sums it up, in general.

    Picture a little baby. Even with its physical needs temporarily met (hunger, diaper, sleep) that baby is most likely ravenous for attention. Maybe quiet attention or goofy attention, etc, but attention nonetheless. Some of that might be immaturity, but I think a good deal of it is human nature. Maybe we need less as adults, but it is safe to assume that there is a baseline need for response and feedback. Both verbal and physical.

    And this is not necessarily insecurity and neediness. One sees that animals, plants, and even inanimate things feed off of attention. The floor needs sweeping and the clutter benefits from sorting. Attention being the flow of energy, as in the practice of feng shui. (I’m still working on that clutter thing! Starting with the mental clutter :smile: )

    To play one’s part in the conversation, in the back-and-forth of life is almost a musical skill. Timing and rhythm, melody and harmony, verse and chorus. The most enjoyable conversations are like a jazz performance, with both soloing and group effort. When the vibration is high, everyone feels good. Even while sitting there quietly.
  • T Clark
    3k


    Your verse always makes me think of this one (80):

    If a country is governed wisely,
    its inhabitants will be content.
    They enjoy the labor of their hands
    and don't waste time inventing
    labor-saving machines.
    Since they dearly love their homes,
    they aren't interested in travel.
    There may be a few wagons and boats,
    but these don't go anywhere.
    There may be an arsenal of weapons,
    but nobody ever uses them.
    People enjoy their food,
    take pleasure in being with their families,
    spend weekends working in their gardens,
    delight in the doings of the neighborhood.
    And even though the next country is so close
    that people can hear its roosters crowing and its dogs barking,
    they are content to die of old age
    without ever having gone to see it.


    Which I find provocative, but I'm not sure if I buy it. So, when I gain enlightenment I won't be able to go on vacation or use a vacuum cleaner anymore? I won't be interested in how other people live and think?
  • frank
    808
    Attention being the flow of energy, as in the practice of feng shui.0 thru 9

    Like recognition for Hegel? Is there a master slave aspect? Maybe not necessarily in a negative way?

    To play one’s part in the conversation, in the back-and-forth of life is almost a musical skill.0 thru 9

    Requiring generosity?
  • frank
    808
    That passage expresses a particularly Chinese aesthetic, or so westerners imagine. They invented the clock and stored it in a basement.
  • T Clark
    3k
    Picture a little baby. Even with its physical needs temporarily met (hunger, diaper, sleep) that baby is most likely ravenous for attention. Maybe quiet attention or goofy attention, etc, but attention nonetheless. Some of that might be immaturity, but I think a good deal of it is human nature. Maybe we need less as adults, but it is safe to assume that there is a baseline need for response and feedback. Both verbal and physical.0 thru 9

    I was sitting in a coffee shop in the town where I live. A group of people came in including and American family with husband, wife, and two teenage girls and an Italian family with husband, wife, and 4 year old girl. Sophia. Sofia spent the whole time marching around an empty table very seriously. Very industriously. Studiously. Really marching - stomp, stomp, stomp. Paying close attention. If something got in her way, she would step back, look at it, move it, and then start marching again. Every five minutes or so, she would go over to her mother. Her mother would whisper something to her. Touch her hair. 10 seconds later Sophia was back marching.

    What a neat little girl. I wonder what she'll be like when she's 30. She was out on an adventure by herself, but every so often she had to go back to the safe place to remind herself that she wasn't alone. I think that's true of children in general. They learn from their parent's attention that the world cares about them. That they belong here. As they get older, they need to be reminded less often because it gets built into who they are.

    To me, that is what attention is for. It reminds us the world cares about us, is interested in us. We belong here.
  • 0 thru 9
    455
    Like recognition for Hegel? Is there a master slave aspect? Maybe not necessarily in a negative way?frank

    Sorry, not sure what you were saying here. Not too familiar with Hegel. Possibly elaborate?

    Requiring generosity?frank
    Definitely. But I imagine it is possible to get more out of it than what is given. But everyone involved has to be contributing. Anyone holding out is like a knot in the garden hose, restricting the flow.


    Good stuff, thanks for sharing it. The particular situation and person mirrors the universal forms, one could say.
  • frank
    808
    Sorry, not sure what you were saying here. Not too familiar with Hegel. Possibly elaborate?0 thru 9

    My understanding isnt deep. It's like this.

    A sense of self could be a by-product of receiving attention. Attention is like food to a developing ego. An ego that doesn't get a normal amount of attention becomes... what?
  • unenlightened
    2.3k
    A sense of self could be a by-product of receiving attention. Attention is like food to a developing ego. An ego that doesn't get a normal amount of attention becomes... what?frank

    Narcissistic. Trying to parent itself, attending to itself, it becomes both hyper-sensitive and vacuous. Ever-demanding, and ever dissatisfied when it gets what it demands, because while has to attend to its own needs, it not only cannot fulfil them, it cannot even properly identify them.
  • frank
    808
    I think you just described me. It looks kind of fucked up laid out so simply.
  • 0 thru 9
    455
    My understanding isnt deep. It's like this.

    A sense of self could be a by-product of receiving attention. Attention is like food to a developing ego. An ego that doesn't get a normal amount of attention becomes... what?
    frank

    :up: Ok, I see what you were referring to. Your food analogy is near perfect. The psyche/ego doesn’t simply enjoy attention or energy or feedback, it radically needs it and is constructed by it. Just as the body uses food as fuel, but is also built from food. Like a starving person eating tree bark or insects, sometimes you just take what you can get. @unenlightened‘s description of the pathology is it, in a nutshell. He probably described the angst or struggle of the greater majority of individuals.

    And like with many things in life, there is some kind of ideal floating balance point, some possible “golden mean”. Too much attention, pressure, expectations, and praise can be damaging, though maybe not in exactly the same way as deprivation. (More or less, the stage-parent phenomenon). The person with a deficiency or toxic excess of attention early in life may need to deal with it eventually. Possibly in a crisis, depression, or breakdown scenario like has been the topic of several threads, and which was discussed in this post. One way or another, willingly or not, the need or imbalance will rise from the subconscious and demand attention and resolution. This seems to be approaching the territory of Carl Jung and Joseph Campbell perhaps.
  • unenlightened
    2.3k
    Don't panic. Student doctors often think they have whatever illness they are studying. Presumably because we're all self-obsessed narcissists to a degree. It's kind of like astrology character descriptions, so vague and universal that anyone can identify with them.
  • frank
    808
    I wonder what that implies about hermits. Maybe the hermit has become her own audience.


    Ok. I'd rather not be overly insane. Just averagely.
  • T Clark
    3k
    And like with many things in life, there is some kind of ideal floating balance point, some possible “golden mean”. Too much attention, pressure, expectations, and praise can be damaging, though maybe not in exactly the same way as deprivation. (More or less, the stage-parent phenomenon). The person with a deficiency or toxic excess of attention early in life may need to deal with it eventually. Possibly in a crisis, depression, or breakdown scenario like has been the topic of several threads, and which was discussed in this post. One way or another, willingly or not, the need or imbalance will rise from the subconscious and demand attention and resolution. This seems to be approaching the territory of Carl Jung and Joseph Campbell perhaps.0 thru 9

    To take it back to the Tao te Ching in Verse 30:

    Because he believes in himself,
    he doesn't try to convince others.
    Because he is content with himself,
    he doesn't need others' approval.
    Because he accepts himself,
    the whole world accepts him.
  • frank
    808
    Stop thinking, and end your problems.
    What difference between yes and no?
    What difference between success and failure?
    Must you value what others value, avoid what others avoid?
    How ridiculous!

    From 20. I wonder how the rhythm of it feels in Chinese.
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