It's how one learns. One forms an idea and observes what happens.. Where path leads, no one knows.

I always listen to advice, but ultimately I have to make the choice.

It's false. :D

Not to be too trite: We all very often make choices which are against our best interests -- even 'best interest' as defined by our own self, and not some external standard. We aren't always self-defeating, but we are at times. We need others to put us back on the right path.

It's false. :D — Moliere

I disagree that it is false. If we don't know what's best for ourselves (and we know more about ourselves than others in most regards, since we have been with us the whole time), then who does? Others may know more about us in some regards - whatever our blind spots are. So in those regards listening to others is profitable. But ultimately, it is us who know best.

Although, it has to be clarified that this "know best" does not mean that we cannot be wrong, self-deceived, etc. just that we can be less so than others.

It's better to think that one knows what's best for them, even if they don't, than to think that someone else knows what's best for them, as the latter is a dangerous way of relinquishing control over one's life to somebody else and ultimately denying responsibility for one's own actions.

If we don't know what's best for ourselves (and we know more about ourselves than others in most regards, since we have been with us the whole time), then who does? — Agustino

Friends. A good friend knows you better than you know yourself.

We all engage in self limiting and self defeating behavior all the time, often falling into repeating destructive patterns. Ultimately we must learn what is best for ourselves and we're the only ones who can make change, but, no, we don't what's best for ourselves all the time. I think we all have all sorts of unrealized greatness in us.

"I know what's best for me."

This seems to be an attitude a lot of people embrace. It can even be argued that it is a starting premise for immoral or amoral behavior.

What are your thoughts about this propositional attitude? — Posty McPostface

It's not so much that I know what's best for me but that it is my responsibility to know what's best for me if I want to be a moral agent. How can I take responsibility for my actions if I can't even judge what is best for myself?

Friends. A good friend knows you better than you know yourself. — Moliere

Not in all circumstances. Quite often friends can give what is for you bad advice, but would for them be good advice if they were in your situation.

I don't think that we have to follow friends in all circumstances to make the argument that "I know what's best for me" is false.

Maybe we're just talking past one another, here, and making the same point.

But to make the fallacious "No true Scostman" argument -- a good friend knows you better than you know yourself.

Even if in some cases they don't. I wouldn't disagree with that -- we are all responsible for ourselves, at the end of the day. It's just that sometimes we take that responsibility as a justification for bad decisions, and we all make bad decisions with respect to ourselves. (Even with respect to our own self-defined end goals and desires)

"I know what's best for me" — Moliere

No, nobody knows what's best for us, including ourselves. But we know better than others in many circumstances, that's my point. There are exceptions, like when you're depressed, or anxious etc. then you may not know what's best for you better than your friends. In any case, discussing issues is often useful, not just with friends, but with everyone.

No, nobody knows what's best for us, including ourselves. — Agustino

If that is the case then "I know what's best for me" is false. No?

If that is the case then "I know what's best for me" is false. No? — Moliere

Sure. I must've expressed myself badly, or perhaps I was tricked by the English language. I said:

But ultimately, it is us who know best. — Agustino

"Know best" does not mean we know it well - just that we know best compared to others.

Although, it has to be clarified that this "know best" does not mean that we cannot be wrong, self-deceived, etc. just that we can be less so than others. — Agustino

I think we may just be in strong disagreement then. To get personal: I am a very independent person. I have strong attachments to who I am, and live my life in accordance to what I think. Even so I have had friends who know me better than I know me. Not that this is something you might need or feel. But I know my most trusted friends well, and they know me better than me. I listen to them because of that.

Even so I have had friends who know me better than I know me. Not that this is something you might need or feel. But I know my most trusted friends well, and they know me better than me. I listen to them because of that. — Moliere

I also listen to my friends some of the time, and in some regards my friends know me better than I know myself. But that's certainly not true in all regards. For example, with regards to dating, I've never listened to my friends - that's why I'm now single :rofl: Ooops, bad example :rofl: . Let's try another. With regards to starting a business, I didn't listen to my friends, and things ended up well so far. There are entire areas of life where friends simply don't know enough (since they aren't me) to be able to help.

Job sure had some good friends, didn't he?

It's a statement that first of all involves a value judgment, therefore, it is a statement that cannot be assigned a truth value ----- either true or false.

I don't know, and you don't either. (Default position on any difficult question)

Below, "you" is a general reference, not a reference to any particular "you".

So, whether one knows what is best for one depends on how well one knows one's self. "Know yourself" the serious sybil sensibly said. IF you know yourself well, THEN you probably know what is is at least fairly good for you (good, maybe not best).

Even if you know yourself well, you can not know very much about all the possible outcomes of any given action. You may know the outcomes of some actions; you may know that some of them are good, and some of them are bad. You may decide to pursue actions that have bad outcomes because that is what you really want to do. Fine. As long as you know... oh, spitting in the boss's face will get you fired, and may make it difficult to get hired someplace else. As long as you're willing to put up with that consequence, then go ahead and gob-smack the SOB.

Can somebody know you better than you know yourself? To a limited extent. If you are very honest in your introspection, and accept your serious flaws and understand their influences, NO, somebody else can't know you better than you know yourself. But if you float around in a daze, sort of stumbling your way through life, babbling nonsensically about this and that, and showing only occasional flashes of intelligence and insight, then somebody else might very well know you at least as well as you know yourself.

But in no case does somebody else know what all the outcomes of any given action might be.

Much of the time, our guesses about probably outcomes of actions are spot on. Good. It's when they are miserably spot off that we have unpleasant surprises.

serious sybil sensibly said — Bitter Crank

Funny that. I've always thought it was the ancient Greeks who said that.

Oh, you mean Sibyl!

What are your thoughts about this propositional attitude? — Posty McPostface

Depends on who is saying it and about whom.
According to you, you know best, but it might be true that another knows best for you since you cannot know everything - another might know something you do not.
Something as trivial as a choice of film to watch on TV, could fit here.
Or a doctor might be able to suggest a medication you'd never ever heard of.

Oh, you mean Sibyl — CuddlyHedgehog

Yes--that one.

The other day I was in an Asics shoe store (Asics is now spelled properly, corrected from 'aesics' ) and this guy -- suppose he was around 50, was making a major production of trying to decide which of 4 shoes was best for him. He was asking the clerk what their advantages were, blah blah blah. I thought he needed some advice, so I said "The Asics are butcher than tasseled penny loafers." "What do you mean?" he asked, sort of annoyed. I said, "you know, 'b u c h e r". "That's spelled 'b u t c h e r'" he announced. I was going to add, "Maybe you're not butch enough for those shoes," but thought better of it.

My spelling skills seems to be slipping. So bucher, sybil, and aesics. All wrong. Fuk.

Which of the 147 Delphic Maxims seems best for you?

001. Ἕπου θεῷ Follow God
002. Νόμῳ πείθου Obey the law
003. Θεοὺς σέβου Worship the Gods
004. Γονεῖς αἰδοῦ Respect your parents
005. Ἡττῶ ὑπὸ δικαίου Be overcome by justice
006. Γνῶθι μαθών Know what you have learned
007. Ἀκούσας νόει Perceive what you have heard
008. Σαυτὸν ἴσθι Be/Know yourself
009. Γαμεῖν μέλλε Intend to get married
010. Καιρὸν γνῶθι Know your opportunity
011. Φρόνει θνητά Think as a mortal
012. Ξένος ὢν ἴσθι If you are a stranger act like one
013. Ἑστίαν τίμα Honor the hearth (or Hestia)
014. Ἄρχε σεαυτοῦ Control yourself
015. Φίλοις βοήθει Help your friends
016. Θυμοῦ κράτει Control anger
017. Φρόνησιν ἄσκει Exercise prudence
018. Πρόνοιαν τίμα Honor providence
019. Ὅρκῳ μὴ χρῶ Do not use an oath
020. Φιλίαν ἀγάπα Love friendship
021. Παιδείας ἀντέχου Cling to discipline
022. Δόξαν δίωκε Pursue honor
023. Σοφίαν ζήλου Long for wisdom
024. Καλὸν εὖ λέγε Praise the good
025. Ψέγε μηδένα Find fault with no one
026. Ἐπαίνει ἀρετήν Praise virtue
027. Πρᾶττε δίκαια Practice what is just
028. Φίλοις εὐνόει Be kind to friends
029. Ἐχθροὺς ἀμύνου Watch out for your enemies
030. Εὐγένειαν ἄσκει Exercise nobility of character
031. Κακίας ἀπέχου Shun evil
032. Κοινὸς γίνου Be impartial
033. Ἴδια φύλαττε Guard what is yours
034. Αλλοτρίων ἀπέχου Shun what belongs to others
035. Ἄκουε πάντα Listen to everyone
036. Εὔφημος ἴοθι Be (religiously) silent
037. Φίλῳ χαρίζου Do a favor for a friend
038. Μηδὲν ἄγαν Nothing to excess
039. Χρόνου φείδου Use time sparingly
040. Ὅρα τὸ μέλλον Foresee the future
041. Ὕβριν μίσει Despise insolence
042. Ἱκέτας αἰδοῦ Have respect for suppliants
043. Πᾶσιν ἁρμόζου Be accommodating in everything
044. Υἱοὺς παίδευε Educate your sons
045. Ἔχων χαρίζου Give what you have
046. Δόλον φοβοῦ Fear deceit
047. Εὐλόγει πάντας Speak well of everyone
048. Φιλόσοφος γίνου Be a seeker of wisdom
049. Ὅσια κρῖνε Choose what is divine
050. Γνοὺς πρᾶττε Act when you know
051. Φόνου ἀπέχου Shun murder
052. Εὔχου δυνατά Pray for things possible
053. Σοφοῖς χρῶ Consult the wise
054. Ἦθος δοκίμαζε Test the character
055. Λαβὼν ἀπόδος Give back what you have received
056. Ὑφορῶ μηδένα Down-look no one
057. Τέχνῃ χρῶ Use your skill
058. Ὃ μέλλεις, δός Do what you mean to do
059. Εὐεργεσίας τίμα Honor a benefaction
060. Φθόνει μηδενί Be jealous of no one
061. Φυλακῇ πρόσεχε Be on your guard
062. Ἐλπίδα αἴνει Praise hope
063. Διαβολὴν μίσει Despise a slanderer
064. Δικαίως κτῶ Gain possessions justly
065. Ἀγαθοὺς τίμα Honor good men
066. Κριτὴν γνῶθι Know the judge
067. Γάμους κράτει Master wedding-feasts
068. Τύχην νόμιζε Recognize fortune
069. Ἐγγύην φεῦγε Flee a pledge
070. Ἁπλῶς διαλέγου Speak plainly
071. Ὁμοίοις χρῶ Associate with your peers
072. Δαπανῶν ἄρχου Govern your expenses
073. Κτώμενος ἥδου Be happy with what you have
074. Αἰσχύνην σέβου Revere a sense of shame
075. Χάριν ἐκτέλει Fulfill a favor
076. Εὐτυχίαν εὔχου Pray for happiness
077. Τύχην στέργε Be fond of fortune
078. Ἀκούων ὅρα Observe what you have heard
079. Ἐργάζου κτητά Work for what you can own
080. Ἔριν μίσει Despise strife
081. Ὄνειδος ἔχθαιρε Detest disgrace
082. Γλῶτταν ἴσχε Restrain the tongue
083. Ὕβριν ἀμύνου Keep yourself from insolence
084. Κρῖνε δίκαια Make just judgements
085. Χρῶ χρήμασιν Use what you have
086. Ἀδωροδόκητος δίκαζε Judge incorruptibly
087. Αἰτιῶ παρόντα Accuse one who is present
088. Λέγε εἰδώς Tell when you know
089. Βίας μὴ ἔχου Do not depend on strength
090. Ἀλύπως βίου Live without sorrow
091. Ὁμίλει πρᾴως Live together meekly
092. Πέρας ἐπιτέλει μὴ ἀποδειλιῶν Finish the race without shrinking back
093. Φιλοφρόνει πᾶσιν Deal kindly with everyone
094. Υἱοῖς μὴ καταρῶ Do not curse your sons
095. Γυναικὸς ἄρχε Rule your wife
096. Σεαυτὸν εὖ ποίει Benefit yourself
097. Εὐπροσήγορος γίνου Be courteous
098. Ἀποκρίνου ἐν καιρῷ Give a timely response
099. Πόνει μετ’ εὐκλείας Struggle with glory
100. Πρᾶττε ἀμετανοήτως Act without repenting
101. Ἁμαρτάνων μετανόει Repent of sins
102. Ὀφθαλμοῦ κράτει Control the eye
103. Βουλεύου χρόνῳ Give a timely counsel
104. Πρᾶττε συντόμως Act quickly
105. Φιλίαν φύλαττε Guard friendship
106. Εὐγνώμων γίνου Be grateful
107. Ὁμόνοιαν δίωκε Pursue harmony
108. Ἄρρητον κρύπτε Keep deeply the top secret
109. Τὸ κρατοῦν φοβοῦ Fear ruling
110. Τὸ συμφέρον θηρῶ Pursue what is profitable
111. Καιρὸν προσδέχου Accept due measure
112. Ἔχθρας διάλυε Do away with enmities
113. Γῆρας προσδέχου Accept old age
114. Ἐπὶ ῥώμῃ μὴ καυχῶ Do not boast in might
115. Εὐφημίαν ἄσκει Exercise (religious) silence
116. Ἀπέχθειαν φεῦγε Flee enmity
117. Πλούτει δικαίως Acquire wealth justly
118. Δόξαν μὴ λεῖπε Do not abandon honor
119. Κακίαν μίσει Despise evil
120. Κινδύνευε φρονίμως Venture into danger prudently
121. Μανθάνων μὴ κάμνε Do not tire of learning
122. Φειδόμενος μὴ λεῖπε Do not stop to be thrifty
123. Χρησμοὺς θαύμαζε Admire oracles
124. Οὓς τρέφεις, ἀγάπα Love whom you rear
125. Ἀπόντι μὴ μάχου Do not oppose someone absent
126. Πρεσβύτερον αἰδοῦ Respect the elder
127. Νεώτερον δίδασκε Teach a youngster
128. Πλούτῳ ἀπίστει Do not trust wealth
129. Σεαυτὸν αἰδοῦ Respect yourself
130. Μὴ ἄρχε ὑβρίζειν Do not begin to be insolent
131. Προγόνους στεφάνου Crown your ancestors
132. Θνῆσκε ὑπὲρ πατρίδος Die for your country
133 Τῷ βίῳ μὴ ἄχθου Do not be discontented by life
134. Ἐπὶ νεκρῷ μὴ γέλα Do not make fun of the dead
135. Ἀτυχοῦντι συνάχθου Share the load of the unfortunate
136. Χαρίζου ἀβλαβῶς Gratify without harming
137. Μὴ ἐπὶ παντὶ λυποῦ Grieve for no one
138. Ἐξ εὐγενῶν γέννα Beget from noble routes
139. Ἐπαγγέλλου μηδενί Make promises to no one
140. Φθιμένους μὴ ἀδίκει Do not wrong the dead
141. Εὖ πάσχε ὡς θνητός Be well off as a mortal
142. Τύχῃ μὴ πίστευε Do not trust fortune
143. Παῖς ὢν κόσμιος ἴσθι As a child be well-behaved
144. Ἡβῶν ἐγκρατής As a youth be self-disciplined
145. Μέσος δίκαιος As of middle-age be just
146. Πρεσβύτης εὔλογος As an old man be sensible
147. Τελευτῶν ἄλυπος On reaching the end be without sorrow

006. Γνῶθι μαθών Know what you have learned
007. Ἀκούσας νόει Perceive what you have heard
008. Σαυτὸν ἴσθι Be/Know yourself
011. Φρόνει θνητά Think as a mortal
015. Φίλοις βοήθει Help your friends
020. Φιλίαν ἀγάπα Love friendship
028. Φίλοις εὐνόει Be kind to friends
037. Φίλῳ χαρίζου Do a favour for a friend
044. Υἱοὺς παίδευε Educate your sons
048. Φιλόσοφος γίνου Be a seeker of wisdom
058. Ὃ μέλλεις, δός Do what you mean to do
070. Ἁπλῶς διαλέγου Speak plainly
105. Φιλίαν φύλαττε Guard friendship
113. Γῆρας προσδέχου Accept old age
147. Τελευτῶν ἄλυπος On reaching the end be without sorrow — Bitter Crank

This is as far as I can get in one session. I've throw out the obvious stuff, and the religious BS.

Yeah, but I want an easy life, not one constrained by a multitude of Maxim's.

Μὴ ἄρχε ὑβρίζειν Do not begin to be insolent — Bitter Crank

Wrong translation. άρχε means rule - do not rule with arrogance

Yeah, but I want an easy life, not one constrained by a multitude of Maxim's. — Posty McPostface

The Wise Old Sibyl had something for you, but you didn't read the list. There's several there that are quite compatible with indolence:

038. Μηδὲν ἄγαν Nothing to excess (Don't trouble yourself).

051. Φόνου ἀπέχου Shun murder (Not hard to do -- usually).

058. Ὃ μέλλεις, δός Do what you mean to do (Whatever the fuck that is).

070. Ἁπλῶς διαλέγου Speak plainly (You did. "I want to live an easy life.").

073. Κτώμενος ἥδου Be happy with what you have. (Very low-(effort advice).

096. Σεαυτὸν εὖ ποίει Benefit yourself. (Why would you not?)

100. Πρᾶττε ἀμετανοήτως Act without repenting (Skip all that repentance crap).

137. Μὴ ἐπὶ παντὶ λυποῦ Grieve for no one (Skip the funerals. Less trouble. Less effort).

139. Ἐπαγγέλλου μηδενί Make promises to no one. (Keep their expectations low, low, low).

Don't look at me -- I didn't translate them.

After reading some of the posts, I noticed that many take "I know what is best for me" to imply ignorance. But it doesn't, at least not always.

A teenager goes to buy a car, who knows best what is good for the kid. The salesman says he does, and wont his friends all admire and envy him for having his own wheels. And a lot of the time the kid ends up buying a clunker even after his dad says " don't buy it". He knows what is best for him.
An older person goes to buy a car, and maybe the same thing happens. But maybe if the older person has had other cars he does know what is best for him. He knows what is best for him.

Know what is best for you should be based on your knowledge about the subject, otherwise it might be wise to listen to your friends.

@Hanover
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Thank you. This is the greatest day of my life. — Hanover

Make a note of it on your calendar! :rofl: