• bahman
    460
    The whole can always be expressed in term of its constitute therefore there is no emergence.

    To elaborate consider a system made of "n" particles in which particle "i" has a set of properties Pi={Pi1,..., Pim}, where "m" is number of properties of a particle and Pjk is the property "k" of particle "j". Any measurable property of the system is only a function of {P1,...,PM}. Therefore there is no emergence.
  • Posty McPostface
    2.3k
    Yes, but can it prove its own consistency?
  • bahman
    460
    Yes, but can it prove its own consistency?Posty McPostface

    Yes, what we understand from one argument is more than sum of words. What is more is created by our mind.
  • Akanthinos
    514
    a system made of "n" particles in which particle "i" has a set of properties Pi={Pi1,..., Pim}, where "m" is number of properties of a particle and Pjk is the property "k" of particle "j". Any measurable property of the system is only a function of {P1,...,PM}.bahman

    There is a hierarchy of levels of properties L0, L1, …, Ln, … of which at least one distinct level is associated with the subject matter of each special science, and Lj cannot be reduced to Li, for any i < j.

    -Paul Humphreys, cited from https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/properties-emergent/
  • tim wood
    423
    The whole can always be expressed in term of its constitute therefore there is no emergence.bahman

    You're going to have to specify - a lot - as to what kind of "whole" you mean, and as well "expressed." For example: do you mean that any text can always be expressed in terms of the letters that constitute it? Music in notes? Sense from mere sounds? Without further qualification and explication, I'm afraid the notions in the OP are too vague to respond to.

    You might have said, "I think some wholes may be entirely expressed through their parts, but I cannot think of any. Can anyone?"

    If you think about the word "expression" you might soon enough come to think that that nothing of any kind whatsoever is "expressable" in terms of its parts.
  • SpacedOut
    13
    Do you mean there can be no emergent properties out of a given system? I'm sorry if I've misunderstood, but its rather vague
  • SophistiCat
    286
    You're going to have to specify - a lot - as to what kind of "whole" you mean, and as well "expressed." For example: do you mean that any text can always be expressed in terms of the letters that constitute it? Music in notes? Sense from mere sounds? Without further qualification and explication, I'm afraid the notions in the OP are too vague to respond to.tim wood

    It's not so much vague as artificially restricted. If there is only one system, one language, one ontology, then there is nothing to be emergent. And you are right, there is no "whole" here either - in order to have a "whole" one would have to introduce something over and above a system of particles. Without that something extra, the system of particles is, trivially, all you have.

    An example of a whole emerging from particles could be continuous medium, such as a fluid, emerging from molecular interactions. But here we have two different ontologies, two different languages, two different sets of properties - one pertaining to the particulate system and the other - to the continuous one. For example, there is no such thing as "pressure" in the particulate system (but one can link pressure to molecular dynamics via a bridge law).

    And yes, read the article that @Akanthinos linked. "Emergence" is a complicated topic (in part because there is no common view of what it is).
  • Magnus Anderson
    232
    "Emergence" is a complicated topic (in part because there is no common view of what it is).SophistiCat

    The word "emergent" simply means "arising unexpectedly". It refers to an observation that contradicts our model of reality. It refers to an observation that is unpredictable in the sense that it cannot be predicted with our model of reality. If your model of reality says that every swan is white then a black swan would be considered emergent because your model cannot predict it. Very simple. Unfortunately, some people are confused and so they want to make everything unnecessarily complicated and that under the guise of profound complexity.
  • bahman
    460
    There is a hierarchy of levels of properties L0, L1, …, Ln, … of which at least one distinct level is associated with the subject matter of each special science, and Lj cannot be reduced to Li, for any i < j.

    -Paul Humphreys, cited from https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/properties-emergent/
    Akanthinos

    I understand what he is trying to say but what I am arguing is that any macro-property is reducible to a set of micro-properties. What he is saying is that macro-properties are independent.
  • bahman
    460
    You're going to have to specify - a lot - as to what kind of "whole" you mean, and as well "expressed."tim wood

    By whole I mean sum of parts.

    For example: do you mean that any text can always be expressed in terms of the letters that constitute it? Music in notes? Sense from mere sounds?tim wood

    Yes.

    You might have said, "I think some wholes may be entirely expressed through their parts, but I cannot think of any. Can anyone?"tim wood

    I am saying all wholes are entirely expressed through their parts.

    If you think about the word "expression" you might soon enough come to think that that nothing of any kind whatsoever is "expressable" in terms of its parts.tim wood

    That is not true. The pressure of a gas is expressible in term of average force excreted to the wall.
  • bahman
    460
    Do you mean there can be no emergent properties out of a given system? I'm sorry if I've misunderstood, but its rather vagueSpacedOut

    Yes, considering OP. Do you have an example of emergent property?
  • bahman
    460
    An example of a whole emerging from particles could be continuous medium, such as a fluid, emerging from molecular interactions. But here we have two different ontologies, two different languages, two different sets of properties - one pertaining to the particulate system and the other - to the continuous one. For example, there is no such thing as "pressure" in the particulate system (but one can link pressure to molecular dynamics via a bridge law).SophistiCat

    The pressure of a gas is expressible in term of average force excreted to the wall. The same applies to liquidity,etc. There is no emergent property.
  • bahman
    460
    The word "emergent" simply means "arising unexpectedly". It refers to an observation that contradicts our model of reality. It refers to an observation that is unpredictable in the sense that it cannot be predicted with our model of reality. If your model of reality says that every swan is white then a black swan would be considered emergent because your model cannot predict it. Very simple. Unfortunately, some people are confused and so they want to make everything unnecessarily complicated and that under the guise of profound complexity.Magnus Anderson

    Yes.
  • Rich
    3.1k
    The only experience that I have had that is fully emergent is a new idea or epiphany. This would represent growth of the mind.
  • tim wood
    423
    For example: do you mean that any text can always be expressed in terms of the letters that constitute it? Music in notes? Sense from mere sounds?
    — tim wood

    Yes.
    bahman
    Yes, it is, they do? Or yes I say they do? If the former, please show how. If the latter, please support your claim.

    Here's an example to work on: "Duck." Work with that.
  • bahman
    460
    The only experience that I have had that is fully emergent is a new idea or epiphany. This would represent growth of the mind.Rich

    Yes, I agree with that. Realm of mind is however is different from realm of material to me.
  • bahman
    460
    Yes, it is, they do? Or yes I say they do? If the former, please show how. If the latter, please support your claim.tim wood

    Yes, I think so.

    Here's an example to work on: "Duck." Work with that.tim wood

    Which duck?
  • Rich
    3.1k
    Realm of mind is however is different from realm of material to me.bahman

    There is no reason to take a dualist stance. It can be considered all the same stuff, quantum information if you will.
  • Magnus Anderson
    232
    ↪bahman The only experience that I have had that is fully emergent is a new idea or epiphany. This would represent growth of the mind.Rich

    Depending on how you define the concept of emergence, you can say that pretty much any event is emergent. This is to emphasize that the concept of emergence must be clearly defined.

    What is emergent if not that which cannot be predicted by some specific model of reality? Emergence is a relation between an event and a model of reality. There is no emergence outside of this relation. You cannot say that an event is unpredictable on its own, in the sense that it cannot be predicted by any kind of model reality, because it is possible to predict any kind of event through sheer luck. You can predict the entire universe through luck. Instead, what you can say is that an event cannot be predicted by particular model of reality. If your model of reality says that all people are bald then your model of reality cannot predict people who are not bald. That's the same exact way in which ideas can be emergent -- by not being predictable by some particular model of reality.
  • Rich
    3.1k
    Depending on how you define the concept of emergence, you can say that pretty much any event is emergent. This is to emphasize that the concept of emergence must be clearly defined.Magnus Anderson

    I agree.
  • bahman
    460
    There is no reason to take a dualist stance. It can be considered all the same stuff, quantum information if you will.Rich

    Quantum information is constant, it cannot be created or annihilated. Therefore new idea cannot be generated.
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