• bahman
    526
    God is changeless. Relationship is about cause and effect. Cause and effect require change. Therefore we cannot make relationship with God.
  • Sunshine Sami
    9
    But if God is simultaneously inside as outside us, then, to the extent that our lives are as much having a developing relationship with ourselves (getting to know ourselves more), surely we do have a relationship with God.
  • Noble Dust
    7.8k
    God is changeless.bahman

    There are a lot of conceptions of God out there. Some of them make room for a God that is both changeless and changing; Ein Sof in the Kabbalah, Paul Tillich's "God Above God", etc. And the idea of us having "a relationship" with God is a pretty modern, Evangelical notion. I'm not aware of it existing in other religions in the way it does in Evangelical Christianity, but I could be unaware.
  • bahman
    526
    But if God is simultaneously inside as outside us, then, to the extent that our lives are as much having a developing relationship with ourselves (getting to know ourselves more), surely we do have a relationship with God.Sunshine Sami

    What God being inside and outside us has to do with relationship with God? There is a gap in line of your reasoning.
  • bahman
    526
    There are a lot of conceptions of God out there. Some of them make room for a God that is both changeless and changing; Ein Sof in the Kabbalah, Paul Tillich's "God Above God", etc. And the idea of us having "a relationship" with God is a pretty modern, Evangelical notion. I'm not aware of it existing in other religions in the way it does in Evangelical Christianity, but I could be unaware.Noble Dust

    Interesting. But aren't the concept of changeless and changing contrary?
  • jorndoe
    3.2k
    There's plenty talk about these supposed beings.
    Yet, the talkers don't show them, and they don't show, all that's left is the talk.
    The talkers would (at least) have to come up with (invent?) an appropriate, coherent response to ignosticism for such talk to turn out more than mere fancies, more than just making things up.

    As far as I can tell, most talkers end up postulating "something else entirely" (implicitly unknown), but still "mind", s'gotta be "mind".
    The talk about atemporality and such tend to get ditched due to incoherence or incompatibilities with other supposed characteristics (that apparently are deemed more "important").
  • Cavacava
    2.4k
    We cannot make relationship with God

    People seemed to have practiced religions from the get-go all over the world. Pew currently estimates 84% of the world claim to have some sort of relationship with God. There might be a joke in this...a few trillion people can't be all be wrong, or maybe there is another way to think about it, not in terms of an individual's faith, but in terms of how communities are constituted by faith.
  • deletedmemberwy
    1k
    God is changeless. Relationship is about cause and effect. Cause and effect require change. Therefore we cannot make relationship with God.bahman

    You are right in saying humans cannot make a relationship with God. Instead, God initiated a relationship with us first. It has nothing to do with change though, as God can easily remain unchanged while partaking in some sort of relationship with us.
  • bahman
    526
    You are right in saying humans cannot make a relationship with God. Instead, God initiated a relationship with us first. It has nothing to do with change though, as God can easily remain unchanged while partaking in some sort of relationship with us.Lone Wolf

    How can God hear what you are praying if He is changeless?
  • deletedmemberwy
    1k
    Because he does not change, he must listen, as being loving is part of his unchangeable attributes.
  • bahman
    526

    Is God same before and after your praying?
  • deletedmemberwy
    1k
    Yes, his attributes do not change.
  • bahman
    526

    Attributes of anything of course don't change. If God is same before and after your praying then your praying couldn't affect Him. How He could then respond properly if He is not affected?
  • deletedmemberwy
    1k
    You are treating God as a substance, a chemical, or an equation, which he is not. But, as to answer your question, you must consider his other attributes. If he is omnipotent, then he already knows what you will say, therefore is still unchanged.
  • bahman
    526

    And how God knows what you are trying to do? Yes, He is not bounded by time. Can God tell you what you are trying to do?
  • deletedmemberwy
    1k
    If you are referring to the doctrine of predestination, I have drawn a conclusion that God does not tell humans what to do; we are free to make our own choices. That God must choose for a human that he may know the future inhibits the potential of his sovereignty.
  • bahman
    526
    If you are referring to the doctrine of predestination, I have drawn a conclusion that God does not tell humans what to do; we are free to make our own choices. That God must choose for a human that he may know the future inhibits the potential of his sovereignty.Lone Wolf

    No, I am not talking about doctrine of predestination. I asked if God can tell you what you are trying to do in a situation? He knows things so He of course can tell you what you are going to do. You can of course do opposite if you are free which this leads to a contradiction.
  • deletedmemberwy
    1k
    Why should he tell any human what he already knows?
  • bahman
    526
    Why should he tell any human what he already knows?Lone Wolf

    I ask God. Can God tells me what I am going to do in a situation?
  • bahman
    526

    So I just do opposite of what God told me. That is leads into a contradiction. Therefore God cannot have foreknowledge.
  • deletedmemberwy
    1k
    But due to omniscience, he would already know that you'd do the opposite, so there is no contradiction.
  • bahman
    526
    No, He cannot know that I do something and opposite of it at the same time since I cannot do something and opposite of it at the same time.
  • deletedmemberwy
    1k
    Exactly. This is why your concept is a contradiction. God is not obligated to tell us anything, and never will be. He already knows our rebellious nature, and also our severely limited ability.
  • bahman
    526

    How God could prove that He is omniscient then?
  • deletedmemberwy
    1k
    Why does he need to prove something to a mere human? He has though, through what many consider prophecy.
  • bahman
    526

    He needs to prove because there are curious human beings who are judgmental. How I could know the person I meet now or after death is God who has foreknowledge then?
  • deletedmemberwy
    1k
    He has no reason other than that he has compassion for humans to reveal anything to us.
  • bahman
    526
    He has no reason other than that he has compassion for humans to reveal anything to us.Lone Wolf

    So would He reveal the truth about our future acts to us? Yes or no.
  • bahman
    526
    No. Not that I know of.Lone Wolf

    Why not?
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