• czahar
    59
    Forgive me for the TL;DR post.

    In this post, I will argue that taxation is not theft, as many libertarians and anarcho-capitalists argue. And even if it were, it would be a perfectly legal and ethical form of theft. For simplicity’s sake, I will put both libertarians and anarcho-capitalists under the term “libertarian.”

    The libertarian argument against taxation is as follows:

    Premise 1: Taxation is theft
    Premise 2: Theft is wrong (implied)
    Conclusion: Taxation is wrong (implied)

    Let’s examine both premises.

    Premise 1

    According to FindLaw:

    The term theft is used widely to refer to crimes involving the taking of a person's property without their permission.

    Going by this very basic definition, taxation could certainly be theft. After all, taxation does involve the government taking your money regardless of whether or not you give it permission.

    However, the important word here is “crime” which is defined by FindLaw as conduct that is prohibited and has a punishment prescribed by the law. Because taxation has no punishment prescribed by law, it can’t be considered a crime, and therefore is not theft.

    Premise 2.

    Still this doesn’t seem right. We often talk about theft in situations where there are no laws against them. After all, there were no laws against the taking of Native American land during Europe’s colonial days, but we still talk about Europe “stealing” (i.e., committing theft against) Native American land.

    So, let’s just assume that the first premise is true and move onto the second.

    Because this premise is often implied, libertarians are rarely (if ever) clear on what they mean by “wrong.” Are they talking about moral wrongness or legal wrongness (i.e., is it illegal)?

    The two are obviously not the same. It is morally wrong for me to cheat on my wife, but not illegal. Conversely, it would be illegal for me to help a slave escape in the antebellum South, but not immoral (one could even argue it would be morally obligatory).

    Legal Wrongness

    Let’s assume “wrong” refers to legal wrongness. If that’s the libertarian’s argument, then she’s incorrect. The Constitution clearly states that the government can tax.

    Section 8. Clause 1. The Congress shall have Power to lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States.

    Perhaps the libertarian could argue that this is just legalized theft (remember that we’re assuming, simply for the sake of argument that Premise 1 is true), but I would counter that legal theft is still legal.

    Moral Wrongness

    That leaves us with the second meaning of “wrong.” This argument is certainly the more convincing of the two. It seems obvious that taking a person’s possessions without his permission is wrong.

    But is it always wrong to take someone’s possessions without her permission? I would argue that it isn’t.

    For example, if someone acquires his possessions by immoral means, it is not wrong to take them from him using immoral means. If I knowingly bought a stolen stereo or bought a stereo with money that I knew was stolen, it would not be immoral for someone to steal that stereo from me. I think most of us can agree with that.

    Taxation allows us to have our possessions. Taxation not only allows us to have the money we need for possessions but allows us to pay for the police officers and legal system that protects said possessions. This is just one example of how taxes allow us to have possessions. I could cite others if asked to.

    If taxation creates the conditions necessary for us to have possessions, this would require the libertarian to concede that possessions are acquired through means helped by theft. And if it is morally permissible to steal those things that have been acquired through theft or whose acquirement was helped by theft, it is morally permissible for the government to use theft —i.e., taxation — to get them.

    This does not mean that all taxation is morally permissible. There may be other reasons taxation or a tax is wrong. For example, if a tax drove people into poverty, or if it were unfairly placed on some but not others, we could argue it is wrong.

    But I am not here to argue that all taxation is justified; I am simply arguing that the moral wrongness of taxation does not come from it being theft.

    I would therefore dispute all of the libertarian premises leading to the conclusion that taxation is wrong. However, even if taxation could be considered theft, that would not necessarily force the conclusion that taxation is wrong, either morally or legally.
  • ArguingWAristotleTiff
    5k
    For example, if someone acquires his possessions by immoral means, it is not wrong to take them from him using immoral means. If I knowingly bought a stolen stereo or bought a stereo with money that I knew was stolen, it would not be immoral for someone to steal that stereo from me. I think most of us can agree with that.czahar

    I cannot agree with that at all. Regardless of how YOU obtain a stereo, it does not in any way give permission to another person to steal anything from anyone, including YOU and your stereo. If I were looking to buy a stereo and you were selling one, the onus is on you as to any kind of 'Karmic' settlement for good or evil, not me, the unknowing obtainer of your stereo.
  • czahar
    59
    I cannot agree with that at all. Regardless of how YOU obtain a stereo, it does not in any way give permission to another person to steal anything from anyone, including YOU and your stereo. If I were looking to buy a stereo and you were selling one, the onus is on you as to any kind of 'Karmic' settlement for good or evil, not me, the unknowing obtainer of your stereo.ArguingWAristotleTiff

    So, if I were caught with this stereo and the police took it away from me, you wouldn't support that? Assume that the person I had taken it from has died and it can't be returned to its original owner.
  • ArguingWAristotleTiff
    5k
    So, if I were caught with this stereo and the police took it away from me, you wouldn't support that? Assume that the person I had taken it from has died and it can't be returned to its original owner.czahar

    The police would take it away from you, if you took it from someone else but how would they know if you stole it from someone if that person is dead?
  • czahar
    59
    The police would take it away from you, if you took it from someone else but how would they know if you stole it from someone if that person is dead?ArguingWAristotleTiff

    There are plenty of ways. He could have reported it stolen and then died or someone else reported it stolen for him. But I don't think that's relevant because it doesn't address the claim of whether or not it would be ethical for the police to take something that you got unethically.
  • T Clark
    13k
    I would therefore dispute all of the libertarian premises leading to the conclusion that taxation is wrong. However, even if taxation could be considered theft, that would not necessarily force the conclusion that taxation is wrong, either morally or legally.czahar

    I think you are being unnecessarily formalistic in dealing with this question. Let's use everyday language. I earn money by working. I use my own effort, enterprise, and capital to obtain the money. It's mine. The government takes it away against my will. That's stealing, not in a legalistic or strict formalistic manner, but in an everyday, human, common sense manner. I can understand that argument, although I don't agree with it.

    Argument against #1 - You pay taxes. They are your membership fees for living in the country and society where you reside. Those taxes are established by legal means. Ideally, but not necessarily, by fair means. Ideally, but not necessarily, people pay their fair share. You say - "But I didn't choose to live in your society." I say "Tough titties." There used to be a solution - head off to unexplored areas and live off your own efforts with no help from others. That's not possible anymore. If you live in our society and use our infrastructure - roads, distribution networks, telephones, legal protections (including property ownership), etc., pay your damn taxes and stop complaining.

    Argument against #2 - This is similar to Argument #1, but broader and more inclusive. All property rights are based on grants from societal/governmental institutions. I don't just mean real estate, I mean all property. In granting you a license, the government does not relinquish all holds on your property. There is an obligation on your part to use your property in certain ways to prevent harm to and provide benefits to society as a whole, e.g. you can't build an industrial plant next to a river and discharge toxic chemicals into the river just upstream of my drinking water intake. Taxes are part of that licensing agreement.

    I agree with both arguments.
  • BC
    13.2k
    Assume that the person I had taken it from has died and it can't be returned to its original owner.czahar

    Possibly your act of taking their stereo killed them. After all, how will they survive without the soundtrack of their life playing in the background?

    Just joking. I agree. We don't want people carrying out DIY justice. I should not break into your house and reclaim my stereo--though if I knew it was in there and you were definitely not going to be back soon, I would be sorely tempted. And what else have you got? Maybe some other good stuff, even better than my old stereo you stole. (Somebody once stole an old vacuum cleaner from my basement during a break in. WTF?)

    You didn't mention the social contract theory which says that as a member of a society receiving social benefits of various kinds, we have an obligation to pay taxes, as part of the 'social contract'.
  • czahar
    59
    I think you are being unnecessarily formalistic in dealing with this question.T Clark

    Fair point. I try to veer on the side of formalism in order to avoid posting a sloppy argument, but perhaps I went overboard on that last one.

    You say - "But I didn't choose to live in your society." I say "Tough titties." There used to be a solution - head off to unexplored areas and live off your own efforts with no help from others. That's not possible anymore. If you live in our society and use our infrastructure - roads, distribution networks, telephones, legal protections (including property ownership), etc., pay your damn taxes and stop complaining.T Clark

    These are my feelings, too, towards anarcho-capitalists anti-tax libertarians, but I probably wouldn't use it in an argument. I would probably counter by saying that all people are born into societies without their consent. Libertarianism and anarcho-capitalism would do nothing to stop that. But being born into a society without your consent does not absolve one from his or her duties to that society. If a libertarian society forces me to follow its non-aggression principle (NAP), I couldn't protest by saying, "Well, I didn't choose to born into a society that forces me to follow the NAP, so I should be able to punch whomever I want!"

    I like your second argument.
  • fishfry
    2.7k
    In this post, I will argue that taxation is not theft, as many libertarians and anarcho-capitalists argue.czahar

    Taxation is theft. If a street gang said, "Give us 30% of your income and we'll protect you from the other gangs," that's a crime. But when the government does the exact same thing, it's regarded as legitimate.

    Why is that? Well one reason is that the State is defined as the entity that has a local monopoly on the use of violence.

    As the defining conception of the state, it was first described in sociology by Max Weber in his essay Politics as a Vocation (1919). Weber claims that the state is the "only human Gemeinschaft which lays claim to the monopoly on the legitimated use of physical force.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence

    Saying that taxation is a legitimate function of the State is circular logic. Taxes are collected under threat of force. The State is defined as the entity possessing a local monopoly on the use of force. Therefore when the State collects money from you under threat of force, their actions are legitimate only by the very definition of the State, but for no deeper reason.

    If one steps back and takes a moral view, violence from a street gang and from the State is indistinguishable. One need only read about the many police abuses of citizens in the US and elsewhere to understand that point.

    Taxes are collected under threat of force. The State claims its violence is legitimate, but I see no moral basis for that claim. As the cops say: There's no justice. There's just us.
  • czahar
    59
    Taxation is theft. If a street gang said, "Give us 30% of your income and we'll protect you from the other gangs," that's a crime. But when the government does the exact same thing, it's regarded as legitimate.fishfry

    What do you mean by "legitimate" here? Dictionary.com defines the word as "according to law; lawful." It also says it is being "in accordance with established rules, principles, and or standards."

    Going by the first definition, taxation is clearly a legitimate function of the state, as it's perfectly legal.

    If you're going to appeal to the second definition, then whose rules, principles, and standards are you appealing to?
  • czahar
    59
    If one steps back and takes a moral view, violence from a street gang and from the State is indistinguishable. One need only read about the many police abuses of citizens in the US and elsewhere to understand that point.fishfry

    I disagree. In a democratic society, government violence is done with the majority support of the public. We vote for presidents to execute the laws (i.e., violence) and for Congresspeople to choose which rules the government is allowed to use violence to enforce.

    Street gang violence is usually not committed with the consent of a public majority. I will concede that there may be some cases where street gangs use violence with majority support, but I think they are few and far between. I can't think of any gang that operates today with majority support.
  • fishfry
    2.7k
    I can't think of any gang that operates today with majority support.czahar

    The government. That's your own example!

    But as I noted earlier, the Nazis were the legitimate government of Germany and had broad popular support for their deeply immoral activities. Legality does not necessarily impart legitimacy. If your only argument for the legitimacy of government violence is that they're the government, that's refuted by the many examples of the immoral acts of governments throughout history.
  • T Clark
    13k
    Taxation is theft. If a street gang said, "Give us 30% of your income and we'll protect you from the other gangs," that's a crime. But when the government does the exact same thing, it's regarded as legitimate.fishfry

    You live in a society, community, and country. You have to pay your share for use of the infrastructure. Or don't you use them? Do you use roads, police, utilities, schools, fire department. Do you own private property? If so, stop complaining.

    There are places in the US where fire departments are privately run non-profits with voluntary participation. If someone doesn't pay to be a member, the department comes to make sure that the fire doesn't damage nearby properties of people who are members. They may also help people get safely out of the house. Then they let it burn. Then people get angry at them.

    I guess things could be run that way. All roads would be privately constructed and have tolls. Police, fire, ambulance would be commercial with competing services. What laws would be enforced?

    Saying taxation is theft is silly. It's a rallying cry for a bunch of people who's personalities don't match social reality. They were just born 200 years too late.
  • czahar
    59
    But as I noted earlier, the Nazis were the legitimate government of Germany and had broad popular support for their deeply immoral activities. Legality does not necessarily impart legitimacy.fishfry

    You seem to contradict yourself here. You state the "Nazis were the legitimate government of Germany" (which I agree with if we define "legitimate" as "lawful") but then you seem to contradict your statement by saying that legality (I'm assuming you're talking about the legality of the Nazi party) doesn't impart legitimacy [of the Nazi party]. You seem to be saying they were legitimate and illegitimate in the same paragraph.

    Furthermore, if "legitimate" does not mean "legal" (as you state in the second sentence) then you need to define it for me.

    If your only argument for the legitimacy of government violence is that they're the government, that's refuted by the many examples of the immoral acts of governments throughout history

    That wasn't my argument. The consent of the majority of voters as my argument for the legitimacy (e.g., legality) of government violence.
  • fishfry
    2.7k
    You seem to contradict yourself here. You state the "Nazis were the legitimate government of Germany" (which I agree with if we define "legitimate" as "lawful") but then you seem to contradict your statement by saying that legality (I'm assuming you're talking about the legality of the Nazi party) doesn't impart legitimacyczahar

    Yes good point. The Nazis were the lawful government of Germany but they were not moral. Legitimacy is a technical term and I'm not using it correctly. Probably what I should have said is that the Nazis were in fact the lawful (legitimate??) gov of Germany but their laws and behavior were immoral.

    Then my main point would still go through. Just because a government is lawful or legitimate, that in itself does not morally justify their violence.

    That wasn't my argument. The consent of the majority of voters as my argument for the legitimacy (e.g., legality) of government violence.czahar

    Yes you're right. Everything the Nazis did was lawful. That's the problem with the argument from law. You may remember the case of a cops who busted into a house looking for a low-level meth dealer who turned out to not be there. They tossed a flashbang grenade into the crib of a sleeping baby, blowing open the baby's face and chest. The Sheriff said they were "following procedure," and nobody was ever held accountable. The county never even paid for the medical bills. Awful case. Legal and lawful, but most definitely immoral.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/18/insider/kevin-sack-no-knock-baby-bou.html
bold
italic
underline
strike
code
quote
ulist
image
url
mention
reveal
youtube
tweet
Add a Comment

Welcome to The Philosophy Forum!

Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.