It is hope that is the opiate of the masses — schopenhauer1

From the Tao Te Ching:

Success is as dangerous as failure.
Hope is as hollow as fear.

What does it mean that success is a dangerous as failure?
Whether you go up the ladder or down it,
your position is shaky.
When you stand with your two feet on the ground,
you will always keep your balance.

What does it mean that hope is as hollow as fear?
Hope and fear are both phantoms
that arise from thinking of the self.
When we don't see the self as self,
what do we have to fear?

See the world as your self.
Have faith in the way things are.
Love the world as your self;
then you can care for all things.

What translation of the Tao Te Ching is that from?

It is hope that is the opiate of the masses. — schopenhauer1

Alan Watts:

While there is life there is hope—and if one lives on hope, death is indeed the end.

We are always thinking that the satisfaction of life will be coming later. ‘There’s a good time coming be it ever so far away'—that one far-off divine event to which all creation moves. Don’t kid yourself. As the Hindus have taught us, in the course of time everything gets worse. It eventually falls apart. Comes Kali-Yuga and Shiva at the end and POOM! Which is to say, only suckers put hope in the future. ”

What translation of the Tao Te Ching is that from? — Nils Loc

I just got it off the web, but I think it's Stephen Mitchell's

Which is to say, only suckers put hope in the future. — T Clark

Yet that is the driver of our continuance on the cycle. No one can really avoid it. The strain of the instrumental nature of existence would be too much without...something. It could be the weekend, the tribal ceremony, that hunt, that X entertainment, that relationship. You name it, you are hoping for something. No one is above it. Sagely words don't negate its affect on the average (read all) humans living.

It is hope that is the opiate of the masses. — schopenhauer1

Hope is expectation. Expectations can be realistic or not. If the latter, it leads to a downward spiral...into pain, suffering and despair. If it is the former then you're in sync with the truth - reality - and the cycle is merry go round. What do you think?

Hope is expectation. Expectations can be realistic or not. If the latter, it leads to a downward spiral...into pain, suffering and despair. If it is the former then you're in sync with the truth - reality - and the cycle is merry go round. What do you think? — TheMadFool

But then another goal takes its place. And another. It is not whether you achieve the goal that I'm getting at, but the insatiableness of goals, the neverending quality, and their instrumental nature. Also, its ability to narrow our focus so we don't see the absurd instrumental nature of the repetition. It's an opiate indeed.

It is hope that is the opiate of the masses. — schopenhauer1

It is despair is the opium of the pessimist. Isn't this just as fair?

The transcendental (i.e. big picture) view of the absurdity of the instrumental affair of existence is lost as we focus on a particular goal/set of goals that we think is the goal.. We think this future state of goal-attainment will lead to something greater than the present. Hope lets us get caught up in the narrow focus of the pursuit of the goal. But then, if we get the goal, another takes its place. The instrumental nature of things comes back into view as we contend with restlessness. Then, we narrow our focus (yet again) to pursue (yet again) what is hoped to be a greater state than the present. The cycle continues. — schopenhauer1

There's lots of truth up there, but I'd have to stress that the instrumental theory is itself a work of creativity. You're still scratching an itch with it, enjoying yourself as a possessor of truth. I share that truth with you. Sure, it's all futile. We eat only to get hungry, fall in love only to take that lover for granted, make intellectual discoveries only to find them banal in the long run. We are like sharks. We must keep moving.

But a certain kind of lifestyle is so engrossing that one doesn't reflect on this futility much. One swings from object to object, becoming more complex and skilled at pursuit. I don't see how the "ultimate futility" makes life more or less valuable in itself. We could just as easily be grateful that the wicked human heart is insatiable. In Brave New World, they chew aphrodisiac chewing gum. Why? Because lots of sex is available in the world of Find The Zipper. So appetite is desirable. Indeed, lust and hunger are even enjoyable when mixed with the pleasure of anticipation.

This is a very comforting view of hopelessness. The comfort of this view actually creates it's own sense of hope.

It is despair is the opium of the pessimist. Isn't this just as fair? — t0m

Pessimists have hope just as much. No one is excluded.

But a certain kind of lifestyle is so engrossing that one doesn't reflect on this futility much. One swings from object to object, becoming more complex and skilled at pursuit. I don't see how the "ultimate futility" makes life more or less valuable in itself. We could just as easily be grateful that the wicked human heart is insatiable. In Brave New World, they chew aphrodisiac chewing gum. Why? Because lots of sex is available in the world of Find The Zipper. So appetite is desirable. Indeed, lust and hunger are even enjoyable when mixed with the pleasure of anticipation. — t0m

Well, what does an opiate do? It dulls the mind. It makes one not see the bigger picture. One is trapped in the narrow confines of each opium den of the new hopeful pursuit. It is just another and another and another. Whether you use terms like grateful for the wicked insatiable human heart, doesn't negate the situation any more than "challenges need to be overcome to make life better" does. If you are alive, human, and self-reflecting, this is your situation. Slap on as many terms as you'd like to make spin it a certain way, but it is just one damn goal after the other, and the hope that a future state will be better. Otherwise, the situation would be too stark to fully manage.

This is a very comforting view of hopelessness. The comfort of this view actually creates it's own sense of hope. — Noble Dust

As I said, the pessimist is just as hopeful as the next guy.

That pessimist sounds like you given the OP; yes/no?

Haha, was it that or schopenhauer1 that tipped you off ;).

Is this a response to me? If so, just your ideas. You seem to find hope in hopelessness.

Is this a response to me? If so, just your ideas. You seem to find hope in hopelessness. — Noble Dust

As I said, no one escapes hope. That's also part of the theory. Those who do are are probably no longer here or in paralyzing depression. Also, Schopenhauer was considered THE pessimist philosopher.

So what do you find hope in? Since you're still here.

Since your referencing Marx, let's get the whole quote:

The foundation of irreligious criticism is: Man makes religion, religion does not make man. Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again. But man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man – state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world. Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopaedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d’honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion.

Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.

The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.[2]

One is trapped in the narrow confines of each opium den of the new hopeful pursuit. — schopenhauer1

But "trapped" implies an unpleasant situation. I don't think your description is incorrect. I just think you are adding a value judgment to an otherwise accurate description.

It is just another and another and another. Whether you use terms like grateful for the wicked insatiable human heart, doesn't negate the situation any more than "challenges need to be overcome to make life better" does. If you are alive, human, and self-reflecting, this is your situation. Slap on as many terms as you'd like to make spin it a certain way, but it is just one damn goal after the other, and the hope that a future state will be better. Otherwise, the situation would be too stark to fully manage. — schopenhauer1

But you're missing that enjoying the cycle means the situation doesn't "ask for" negation. For 10 years now I've been a "nihilist" in recognizing nothing absolute in the world. Indeed, this negation of the world is (for me) the absolute itself. By identifying with disidentification itself, man becomes transcendence incarnate.So by no means am I afraid of understanding you here. I'm not squeamish about the futility of human existence. It's part of my persona, living with this knowledge and the distance from mortal things it provides those who can accept their mortality.

I agree with what you imply, that we "slap on terms" in order to cope with reality. But I radicalize this theory. Even the grim "truth" of futility can function as an erotic object or power play. Pessimism is sexy.

Occasionally I feel world-weary. Occasionally (especially if I get sick), I get disgusted with life. So these modes appear, and it's easy to abstractly assent to my death in such modes. But for the most part the game is too absorbing. I have projects to bring to fruition. We can call the projects an illusion or the sense of futility an illusion. We'd just be privileging one mode over the other. Both modes are real. To project a dominant abstraction is arguably to reduce the real for a moment's purpose.

I see your edit. As someone also trapped in paralyzing depression, my question still stands.

So what do you find hope in? Since you're still here. — Noble Dust

How is that relevant to the claim that hope is the opiate of the masses? You assume I have a way out of it or something. This is not meant to fully mimic Marx, in that he had a purported solution to the opiate (religion) which was Communism. I am just saying that this is how we operate. We can see the situation, but despite it, hope is what drives us through what otherwise would be unbearable instrumentality.

EMILY DICKINSON

“Hope” is the thing with feathers -
That perches in the soul -
And sings the tune without the words -
And never stops - at all -

And sweetest - in the Gale - is heard -
And sore must be the storm -
That could abash the little Bird
That kept so many warm -

I’ve heard it in the chillest land -
And on the strangest Sea -
Yet - never - in Extremity,
It asked a crumb - of me.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people. — Bitter Crank

Indeed, Marx was pedelling a new opiate of hope in Communism. Same bullshit, different name. A better state will come.

You said no one escapes hope, which includes you. So a logical follow up question is, "what do you find hope in?" Since you haven't, presumably, escaped hope (via your own admission). So, it's relevant, in that it places you within those masses, rather than without.

You assume I have a way out of it or something. — schopenhauer1

I don't assume that of you personally, but it's inherent in your argument, yes.

I am just saying that this is how we operate. We can see the situation, but despite it, hope is what drives us through what otherwise would be unbearable instrumentality. — schopenhauer1

That's an interesting idea; do you think driving through that has a telos? Or any kind of meaning you'd like to assign it?

Also, I noticed your edit about paralyzing depression. I have it, and am currently wrestling it. I'm responding here, emotionally, because I'm with you, not because I think your ideas are inherently wrong.

But "trapped" implies an unpleasant situation. I don't think your description is incorrect. I just think you are adding a value judgment to an otherwise accurate description. — t0m

By trapped, I mean, it narrows the focus- like opium.

I agree with what you imply, that we "slap on terms" in order to cope with reality. But I radicalize this theory. Even the grim "truth" of futility can function as an erotic object or power play. Pessimism is sexy.

Occasionally I feel world-weary. Occasionally (especially if I get sick), I get disgusted with life. So these modes appear, and it's easy to abstract assent to my death in such modes. But for the most part the game is too absorbing. I have projects to bring to fruition. We can call the projects an illusion or the sense of futility of illusion. We'd just be privileging one mode over the other. — t0m

So you are just reiterating what I said. Hope moves us along through the instrumental nature of reality. Sometimes you see it for what it is, but probably not very long. You get swept in some other hope, perhaps some Nietzschean notion of the erotic object or power play. As you indicate, the premise stands, and you are simply supplying some good examples in your own hopefulness in Nietzchean (or whatever you want to call it) philosophy.

So what do you think that means?

That's an interesting idea; do you think driving through that has a telos? Or any kind of meaning you'd like to assign it?

Also, I noticed your edit about paralyzing depression. I have it, and am currently wrestling it. I'm responding here, emotionally, because I'm with you, not because I think your ideas are inherently wrong. — Noble Dust

If by telos you mean purpose, I'd have to know what more you mean. It's a way we get through the day. There is some goal, outcome, event, that will take place. It is extremely hard to function when there is not this. As you and others have pointed out, even Sisyphus smiling at his own futility is hope. It is hope in the living out of the futility. Hope of the hopeless futility. But usually don't live in that realm, they live in the realm of smaller goals as, once they hit the wall of futility, more goals fill its place. Restlessness churning.

So you are just reiterating what I said. Hope moves us along through the instrumental nature of reality. Sometimes you see it for what it is, but probably not very long. You get swept in some other hope, perhaps some Nietzschean notion of the erotic object or power play. As you indicate, the premise stands, and you are simply supplying some good examples in your own hopefulness in Nietzchean (or whatever you want to call it) philosophy. — schopenhauer1

Yes, I agree with the basic structure. But "seeing it for what it is" is also part of the structure. This vision of instrumentality is itself instrumentality. It is itself wishful thinking, even if it hurts, perhaps especially because it hurts. I don't know about you, but I was raised beneath a crucified God. So these dark visions remind me of the self-crucifixion of the spirit. Nietzsche is apt. This is festival of cruelty. Society can't do much to stop us from self-cruelty. It's erotic.

Assuming that this is the THE TERRIBLE TRUTH, where does that put us? Or you in particular? You are the one who sees the face of God, and it is death to look upon the face of God. It may hurt. You may be terribly unhappy. But such suffering is ennobled by possession of this Truth, God's (or Reality's) actual, terrible face.

I'm not saying that this isn't the truth, but it's just a truth among others. If we are as humans fundamentally the desire for recognition or status (Kojeve's notion), then there's just more than one strategy. And to me this "status lust" is prior to instrumentality, or includes it. The theory of instrumentality is itself an instrument for status. That's my theory. But that theory too is a questionable instrument of status, which my anti-faith bids me to not completely identify with.

Restlessness churning. — schopenhauer1

It's your business, but maybe your lifestyle isn't what it should be. My physical/economic lifestyle changed while my "metaphysics" stayed the same and I became much happier. The little details add up to making the endless cycle worth repeating -- at least for now, while I'm young-middle-aged.

Yes, I agree with the basic structure. But "seeing it for what it is" is also part of the structure. This vision of instrumentality is itself instrumentality. It is itself wishful thinking, even if it hurts, perhaps especially because it hurts. I don't know about you, but I was raised beneath a crucified God. So these dark visions remind me of the self-crucifixion of the spirit. Nietzsche is apt. This is festival of cruelty. Society can't do much to stop us from self-cruelty. It's erotic. — t0m

Yeah, even worse than Schopenhauer's negation of Will is Nietzsche's eternal recurrence. That truly is a horror. One is quiescence, the other is manic life sentence. The eternal vigilance of being.

Assuming that this is the THE TERRIBLE TRUTH, where does that put us? Or you in particular? You are the one who sees the face of God, and it is death to look upon the face of God. It may hurt. You may be terribly unhappy. But such suffering is ennobled by possession of this Truth, God's (or Reality's) actual, terrible face.

I'm not saying that this isn't the truth, but it's just a truth among others. If we are as humans fundamentally the desire for recognition or status (Kojeve's notion), then there's just more than one strategy. And to me this "status lust" is prior to instrumentality, or includes it. The theory of instrumentality is itself an instrument for status. That's my theory. But that theory too is a questionable instrument of status, which my anti-faith bids me to not completely identify with. — t0m

The point again, is hope gives us the narrow focus we need to not constantly bear the world in its full instrumental nature. It provides the ship its ballast. Status may be something that we do in a society, but that is more an epiphenomenon of being a social creature and is a secondary effect, and not an underlying factor in why we continue at a fundamental level. Status is not only getting caught up in goals, but taking them seriously.

It's your business, but maybe your lifestyle isn't what it should be. My physical/economic lifestyle changed while my "metaphysics" stayed the same and I became much happier. The little details add up to making the endless cycle worth repeating -- at least for now, while I'm young-middle-aged. — t0m

Gotta have hope. Indeed. Upgrade the opium.