• Bitter Crank
    3.6k
    For the system to workWISDOMfromPO-MO

    Capitalism also has a process called "creative destruction". Audio tape (reel to reel or cassette) augmented the vinyl record, and did nothing to the turntable. the compact disk, on the other hand, was introduced to destroy the installed base of 33 rpm records and turntables both. Why do that? Because the market in vinyl recordings and turntables was matured and was saturated. New recordings could be turned out, but huge sales figures and high profits would not be forthcoming.

    In one fell swoop, the recording industry switched from one kind of gear to another, and opened up the whole market to new sales of old product, as well as new product. (Everybody except a few aficionados that stuck with vinyl.) Sales bounded forward, along with profitability.

    Windows replaced DOS. The MP3 player replaced cassettes and CD players. New iPhones no longer have a convenient plug for headphones. Newer phones use pads instead of plugs to recharge the batteries. There are many instances of a new product line rendering the old product line dead.

    Creative destruction accounts for a major chunk of both change and more junk. Then there is style obsolescence, which auto manufacturers have used for a long time. New cars are as styled as fashion runways, and people want to be 'in style'.

    There will be some aspects of creative destruction which will be beneficial. Book technology was perfected a long time ago, and I love books. Maybe the digital reader is creative destruction of the printed book, but I find the digital readers much easier to read (bigger print size, more contrast). I wish it had come along 60 years ago.
  • Bitter Crank
    3.6k
    I for one do not want to live in a wood shack reading by candlelight and dying at 30.fishfry

    Is it the wood shack, reading by candlelight (you could read in the daytime, ya know), or dying at 30 that you find unsatisfactory? By the way, 30 was the average age of longevity in bad times. Child and maternal mortality kept the average so low. If you made it through childhood diseases and graduated to your own shack in good health and plenty of candles, you might well live to be 50.
  • fishfry
    68
    Is it the wood shack, reading by candlelight (you could read in the daytime, ya know), or dying at 30 that you find unsatisfactory?Bitter Crank

    I like flat screen tv's and the Internet and modern medicine and products in stores. I can't imagine functioning a hundred years ago.
  • Nils Loc
    230
    xcEprFV.jpg

    Emile Bin's Hamadryad

    ***

    Hans Rudi Giger's art amplifies disgust and terror of technology as a projected onto the natural world. Might as well be a riff on the theme in Bin's Hamadryad.
  • apokrisis
    1.9k
    There doesn't seem to be a strict cut-off being what is natural and what is artificial.darthbarracuda

    The simple difference would be that the artificial doesn't have the means to make itself.

    Nature makes itself whether that be at the level of rivers carving out their channels or bodies turning food into flesh. The artificial only happens as the result of someone having the idea and the desire to manufacture the material form.
  • darthbarracuda
    2.3k
    The simple difference would be that the artificial doesn't have the means to make itself.

    Nature makes itself whether that be at the level of rivers carving out their channels or bodies turning food into flesh. The artificial only happens as the result of someone having the idea and the desire to manufacture the material form.
    apokrisis

    Right, like I implied earlier, the artificial is that which does not have an identity or telos itself but rather exists for a purpose that has been applied by the manufacturer. Take away the manufacturer and the user and you're left with a material object, bottom-up reductionism with no natural purpose.
  • MikeL
    236
    The simple difference would be that the artificial doesn't have the means to make itself.

    Nature makes itself whether that be at the level of rivers carving out their channels or bodies turning food into flesh. The artificial only happens as the result of someone having the idea and the desire to manufacture the material form.
    apokrisis

    Hi Apokrisis. It's always good to read your posts. Just a couple of questions for you. What do you mean by "means" in the above statement "it doesn't have the means to make itself"? A robot assembly factory is able to slap together pieces to make another robot. Do you mean resources?

    Also you personify Nature in your second statement. Just going back to your previous discussion, what is your position on panpsychism v semiotic machine behaviour?

    Lastly you say the AI only happens as a result of someone having the idea and desire. Could AI also be a generator of ideas or desires?
  • apokrisis
    1.9k
    Also you personify Nature iMikeL

    Because I don't have a problem crediting nature with purpose, even if it is not much of a purpose in being the general tendency to entropify.

    So ordinary language gives us two choices - either to chose mentalistic or physicalist terminology. Dualism is baked into our linguistic culture. Biology would offer more accurate jargon, but that might go down so well.

    What do you mean by "means" in the above statement "it doesn't have the means to make itself"? A robot assembly factory is able to slap together pieces to make another robot. Do you mean resources?MikeL

    Someone would have to have built the factory, supplied it with power, stepped in to fix the software glitch that halted production, etc. And then the factory is building robots, not building factories.

    So natural things are autopoietic or self-making. They develop rather than get built.

    Could AI also be a generator of ideas or desires?MikeL

    Ask Siri.
  • MikeL
    236
    Haven't you seen the Matrix movies, Apokrisis? I could build a system of robots that could make the factories, fix the glitches that halted production, and even provide the power (but you won't want to know where from). When people do it, they are meddling in the artificial world of robots.

    I've read you before talking about the purpose of nature to entropify in other posts. I'm a bit vague on your meaning. If entropy is the purpose, why bother with the speed hump of life?

    I'm not concerned about your wording of nature, I was just curious.
  • apokrisis
    1.9k
    Life exists to accelerate entropification. It creates dissipative pathways to cool the universe faster.

    Of course it's contribution in cosmological terms is infinitesimal. But green forest does a better job than bare rock at turning hot sun rays into cooler infrared radiation. The energy goes back into space at a much lower spectral temperature that would otherwise have been the case.

    As to the Matrix, it's a film. Does simulated rain make you really wet? Would a simulated factory make real robots?
  • MikeL
    236
    As to the Matrix, it's a film. Does simulated rain make you really wet? Would a simulated factory make real robots?apokrisis

    No, but the program that tells the machine gun to shoot anyone who steps over the fence sure shoots real bullets.

    It creates dissipative pathways to cool the universe faster.apokrisis

    So life is a manifold. To what end - the cooling of the universe faster I mean?
  • szemi
    3
    I read the other day in the New York Times that Neanderthals had learned how to extract a pitch-glue from birch bark. They used it to fasten points to shafts.Bitter Crank

    Maybe we should let the NYT writers fill the empty spaces on this forum, and we all just shut up. :-)
  • Jeremiah
    264
    In a way, the question comes down to: what differentiates the natural from the artificial?darthbarracuda


    You, as I certainly don't see what you are describing. In the respects of what is natural, I see no difference between my computer screen and the tree outside.
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