• anonymous66
    626
    In short: for me the answer is to seek to emulate not people, but their admirable acts.andrewk

    That sounds like a pretty good policy. But, what about adding "... admirable acts and qualities"?
  • creativesoul
    12k
    Confirmation bias anyone?

    X-)
  • creativesoul
    12k
    I admire those who've made mistakes and were better off as a result. No one makes a mistake on purpose.
  • Akanthinos
    1k
    Getting back to the OP. I was looking into metaphysics, and Heidegger's name came up. He is controversial because he joined the Nazi party, was an anti-Semite (he made anti-Semitic comments in his Black Notebooks written in 1931-1941 , first published in 2014), and never apologized for his affiliation with the Nazis.
    — anonymous66
    You forget:
    Heidegger had a long and highly problematic romantic relationship with Hannah Arendt and a steamy affair (over many decades) with Elisabeth Blochmann, both students of his. Arendt was Jewish, and Blochmann had one Jewish parent, making them subject to severe persecution by the Nazi authorities. He helped Blochmann emigrate from Germany before the start of World War II and resumed contact with both of them after the war.[38] Heidegger's letters to his wife contain information about several other affairs of his.
    — Wikipedia
    Agustino

    Study of the Black Notebooks as of 2014 shows that not only Heidegger held anti-semitic views, but that his views were fairly non-sophisticated (as far as you can have sophisticated racism). It wasn't demonic racism, but it surely informed his interactions.

    And his relations to Arendt and Blochmann aren't indicative of anything, except that he was a leech. Arendt herself later called him a " likely psychopath", "who I would not be surprised to learn that he had murdered someone".
  • Shawn
    13.3k
    I have a special place with some philosophers who take their teachings seriously, who are sincere and honest.

    So, this leaves me with a couple of prominent philosophers.

    The Stoics, I have no preference; but, at the same time, it's hard to understand how Marcus Aurelius wanted his Meditations to be burned and not given to the public, while at the same time being so hard on himself in his Meditations. Knowing the fact that he wanted the Meditations to be burned really changed my mind about his inner life.

    Diogenes, although I don't really like philosophers who act like fundamentalists or take their philosophy to the extreme, it seems that the Stoics were right about the Cynics just taking a shortcut to practicing good moral conduct.

    Wittgenstein, I think this doesn't require further explanation. It's obvious that he was not only a supreme philosopher but as well as a great human being at it, too.

    And, Socrates. He might have been a martyr; but, again the cause was worth it.
  • Agustino
    11.2k
    Wittgenstein, I think this doesn't require further explanation. It's obvious that he was not only a supreme philosopher but as well as a great human being at it, too.Posty McPostface
    That's not obvious actually.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haidbauer_incident

    http://www.openculture.com/2015/05/ludwig-wittgensteins-short-strange-brutal-stint-as-an-elementary-school-teacher.html
  • Shawn
    13.3k


    Good point in the second link. Wittgenstein wasn't a saint but sure comes damm close.
  • charleton
    1.2k
    ↪Agustino

    Good point in the second link. Wittgenstein wasn't a saint but sure comes damm close.
    Posty McPostface

    He'd have probably been horrified to hear you say that. The church was not friendly to homosexuals.
  • Shawn
    13.3k


    Of that I am aware of. I just used the term figuratively.
  • charleton
    1.2k
    Of that I am aware of. I just used the term figuratively.Posty McPostface

    Probably are alternative words less offensive.
  • Shawn
    13.3k


    I didn't know calling Wittgenstein as a 'saint' could be interpreted as offensive.

    I stand corrected.
  • Agustino
    11.2k
    He'd have probably been horrified to hear you say that. The church was not friendly to homosexuals.charleton
    And yet, Wittgenstein was most likely a believer.
  • Agustino
    11.2k
    I didn't know calling Wittgenstein as a 'saint' could be interpreted as offensive.

    I stand corrected.
    Posty McPostface
    >:O >:O >:O
  • anonymous66
    626
    Wittgenstein, I think this doesn't require further explanation. It's obvious that he was not only a supreme philosopher but as well as a great human being at it, too.Posty McPostface

    As others have pointed out, he had some serious flaws.
  • anonymous66
    626
    The Stoics, I have no preference; but, at the same time, it's hard to understand how Marcus Aurelius wanted his Meditations to be burned and not given to the publicPosty McPostface
    I know some who are trained in the classics believe that he did intend to have them published.
  • charleton
    1.2k

    It was hard to be gay. More so then than now.
  • anonymous66
    626
    I don't know that his sexual preferences caused any problems. I'm not even sure if we can say we know he was gay.
  • charleton
    1.2k
    There is not a scrap of doubt that he had relationships with men and women in his life.
    Homosexuality was illegal and heavily scorned by social pressure. It led Alan Turing to kill himself.
  • anonymous66
    626
    There is not a scrap of doubt that he had relationships with men and women in his lifecharleton
    What is your source of information for Wittgenstein's sexual orientation? I've seen some speculation, but is there anything more concrete?
    From Philosophy Now.
    That a man of Wittgenstein’s background and ability led such a difficult and unsettled life is indicative of his complex and troubled personality. He was prone to introspection and self-castigation and throughout his adult life experienced suicidal impulses and bouts of depression and at times feared for his own sanity. Being something of a loner he often sought complete solitude yet was a magnetic personality who formed many friendships and evoked awe in virtually all who met him. He was a compelling teacher who had a profound influence on many of his students, both on the philosophical outlook of those who became philosophers and on the life choices of those who did not. But he could be a difficult, demanding and overbearing friend and several major Cambridge figures, though admiring of his intellect and integrity, eventually broke off their friendships with him or sought to keep him at arm’s length.

    It has frequently been claimed that Wittgenstein was gay and that he fell in love on several occasions (usually with young men who combined intelligence with innocence and gentleness). However, it is probable that his sexual life was very limited as he believed that sex, and physical proximity in general, only serve to undermine true love.
  • charleton
    1.2k
    The quote does not deny his homosexuality, please note.

    I cannot speak for him actually having gay sex, that's not the issue.

    The fact of his sexual orientation has never been at issue as far as I am aware. I was reflecting that such an orientation, even these days, can leave a person with a deep sense of alienation - hence "hard to be gay".
  • anonymous66
    626
    The fact of his sexual orientation has never been at issue as far as I am aware.charleton
    I still don't know why it is that you believe this to be true.
  • charleton
    1.2k
    Have you got some objection to homosexuality?
  • anonymous66
    626
    Our conversation brings up 2 issues. 1. What evidence is there that Wittgenstein was gay? 2. If he was gay (I'm not sure he was) then what evidence is there that Wittgenstein suffered because he was gay?

    I'm actually fairly liberal and am in favor of same-sex marriages.
  • charleton
    1.2k
    You are the only person I know that has ever denied it.
    You've already offered evidence in your own post.
    Wittgenstein spent his life in existential angst wrestling with his own nature. Nothing I have read denies this anxiety, and his homosexuality.
    I can't offer you hard evidence.
  • Shawn
    13.3k
    You are the only person I know that has ever denied it.
    You've already offered evidence in your own post.
    Wittgenstein spent his life in existential angst wrestling with his own nature. Nothing I have read denies this anxiety, and his homosexuality.
    I can't offer you hard evidence.
    charleton

    He came close to losing his mind and suicide while in Norway, supposedly relaxing and thinking about philosophy. That's what going against Proposition 7 in the TLP, will do. And,

    He was homosexual from what I've read but may have been celibate his whole life. I don't know about that last past though.
  • anonymous66
    626
    Are you referring to this?
    That a man of Wittgenstein’s background and ability led such a difficult and unsettled life is indicative of his complex and troubled personality. He was prone to introspection and self-castigation and throughout his adult life experienced suicidal impulses and bouts of depression and at times feared for his own sanity. Being something of a loner he often sought complete solitude yet was a magnetic personality who formed many friendships and evoked awe in virtually all who met him. He was a compelling teacher who had a profound influence on many of his students, both on the philosophical outlook of those who became philosophers and on the life choices of those who did not. But he could be a difficult, demanding and overbearing friend and several major Cambridge figures, though admiring of his intellect and integrity, eventually broke off their friendships with him or sought to keep him at arm’s length.
    He also had 3 brothers who committed suicide.
  • charleton
    1.2k
    Not specifically.
    Anyone whose very nature is anathematised by the culture he lives in is not going to have an easy time of it. Life is hard enough as it is without being marginalised.
  • Akanthinos
    1k


    Heard he had multiple casual relations with his students.
bold
italic
underline
strike
code
quote
ulist
image
url
mention
reveal
youtube
tweet
Add a Comment

Welcome to The Philosophy Forum!

Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.