• PeterPants
    82
    Hi all, there seems to be a strange view in the world that people 'deserve' things like punishment..

    In reality people are essentially not in control of who they are, what they do, not fundamentally anyway. We are all simply the products of our experiences. No one chooses their genetics, who raises them or their experiences.
    This is of course a claim, im perfectly open to anyone suggesting otherwise.

    Many people find this dissolution of 'free will' (whatever thats supposed to be) to be de-humanizing or somehow absolve us of responsibility, to suggest that we have no 'purpose' or that everything is simply pointless, this seems to me to be a massive confusion.


    If a man is born, raised, and lives through certain experiences that lead to him being a deeply flawed human, what does it even mean to say that he could have done otherwise? further, what on earth could it possibly mean to say that this man 'deserves' to be punished for any wrongdoings?

    Of course we are perfectly validated by reason to prevent this man from causing harm, if a person shows themselves to be synonymous with a system of thoughts and beliefs that can likely lead to actions that negatively affect the well-being of others, then its perfectly reasonable to imprison this person, or to do anything we can to prevent that harm, or even to harm this person as a deterrent for others considering the same crime. But how does it make any sense to 'hate' the person themselves? or to seek 'vengeance' upon him? hate the crime, not the criminal seems a purely logical command.

    The simply fact is that if you were born with the brain of a psychopath, and raised with insufficient experiences to prevent you from causing harm to others, then regardless of how much you think you would fight these tenancies, you simply would be a dangerous person, where does any room for personal responsibility come into it?


    A note on what i mean by responsibility: people are not ultimately responsible for their actions, but we must act responsible, and hold each other responsible, for practical reasons. While still recognizing intellectually that we are not the arbiters of who we are, and as such things like hatred, vengeance etc, make no sense.
    The difference here being that, one should not hate Hitler, one should pity Hitler, hate what he does, and strive to prevent it, but were one to become in possession of Hitler himself, if you could ensure he could do no harm, it would be your moral responsibility to ensure he was comfortable and happy. Regardless of his evil actions, he was still a conscious being and did not 'deserve' to be harmed, after all what would it actually achieve?

    This argument is a moral argument, not necessarily a pragmatic one, as i mentioned above, there is of course still a necessity for punishment as a deterrent, though one could imagine a world where punishment was pretend, people believed it was real but it was actually just CGI for example.
  • Rich
    3.2k
    there is of course still a necessity for punishment as a deterrentPeterPants

    Well, it isn't really up to you or anyone else is it? There is no choice.

    I realize your computer is writing your post, but my computer is wondering why is your computer even bothering. It thinks your computer is buggy so it is forcing me to write this message.

    I think (sorry, I mean my computer thinks) determinism makes for a great parlor game
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    12.3k
    A note on what i mean by responsibility: people are not ultimately responsible for their actions, but we must act responsible, and hold each other responsible, for practical reasons. While still recognizing intellectually that we are not the arbiters of who we are, and as such things like hatred, vengeance etc, make no sense.PeterPants

    How does it make sense to say that people are not responsible, but they must act responsible? Does this mean that they should pretend to be responsible when they really are not responsible? What would give them the capacity to pretend to be responsible when they really are not responsible?

    This argument is a moral argument, not necessarily a pragmatic one, as i mentioned above, there is of course still a necessity for punishment as a deterrent, though one could imagine a world where punishment was pretend, people believed it was real but it was actually just CGI for example.PeterPants

    How could punishment act as a deterrent if people don't have freedom to choose?
  • PeterPants
    82
    you seem to have mistakenly assumed that i dont think you are the conscious center of your thoughts and intentions.. our computers are not typing anything, we (humans) are typing ON computers.

    we are sentient beings who can think and act, we can rationalize and make decisions, laws are constructed by societies of people and talking about the application of law CAN change the way people think about it, and eventually, change the law itself. not that im even suggesting any changes to law, just the way we think about punishment.

    so, whats the problem here Rich? i get you dont seem to like the idea that your a machine, but so what? why should i care about your emotional response to my argument?
  • Rich
    3.2k
    No problem. My computerized brain (it is taking the liberty to reveal itself right here in the open, for the first time ever), it's wondering why your computerized brain its writing the post? Both computers know there is no choice so why spoil the illusion that we (us computers) have been working so hard to create? Now it's all out in the open and my computer is frankly a bit upset.
  • PeterPants
    82


    im not actually saying that people don't make decisions, just that we are not the ultimate source of those decisions. im saying that you have NO choice in who you are, or what you do, in any ultimate sense. you still do things.

    for practical reasons we must take responsibility for our actions, we still do them, even if we are not ultimately responsible for them.

    This is called a nuanced argument, dont discount it just because it does not fit your current understanding of terms like 'responsibility' :P

    please do ask questions and check things, because i don't think you quite get what im actually arguing here.


    really, the issue is that 'we' are not what you think.. insofar as i believe anyway.
    'we' are the conscious experience, the silent witness of experience, we are not our thoughts, feelings or actions, we simply experience those things. but now we lead down a rabbit whole that im quite sure i wont convince you of, that your personal experience of 'deciding' something, is an illusion, a trick. your brain does all the deciding outside of your control or understanding, it then tricks you into thinking you did it. when really the decision is as mysterious to you as anything could be, you don't know how the neurons are firing of in your brain, you don't know what subconscious things are going on behind the scenes.
  • Rich
    3.2k
    How could punishment act as a deterrent if people don't have freedom to choose?Metaphysician Undercover

    It's an illusion but now it's all out in the open. The fun is all gone. I'm kind of miffed (from a computer point of view) that the illusion is now gone. I think the PeterPants computer is buggy and has gone rogue.
  • PeterPants
    82


    lol, indeed.

    well, i say that your computers being upset at this new understanding (or rather, pretended understanding) is just a symptom of a lifetime of confused thinking about personhood, selfness, etc.

    we can go down the hole of what these things actually mean if you want.. it generally helps people understand what i am/am not actually saying.

    because seriously, in my experience, everyone misunderstands this idea at first, as demonstrated by their irreverent rebukes. (not that you've really said any of those)
  • PeterPants
    82


    i dont think it ever was a good illusion, i think it causes great suffering and pain, in the person and in everyone else. people going around feeling vindictive and hatred for other people, believing there are 'bad' people instead of just bad ideas etc.
  • PeterPants
    82
    " My computerized brain"

    ps, its just 'brain' the 'computerized' part is entirely unnecessary, brains ARE computers, clearly.
  • Rich
    3.2k
    Nope. All the brain computers have worked liked the dickens to create the illusion and unfortunately yours went rogue.
  • PeterPants
    82
    no, i dont think the brain does work to create the illusion, its just a side effect. and i see no problem in dissolving that illusion..

    do you actually have any arguments or points? or are you just going to keep playing this silly game?

    PS, not just my brain, also the brains of millions of other people, predominantly those who practice eastern meditation. Not that i ever have done so.
  • PeterPants
    82
    Anyway, you should really try to actually understand what people are saying before you start acting like a child and teasing them.
  • Rich
    3.2k
    Anyway, you should really try to actually understand what people are saying before you start acting like a child and teasing them.PeterPants

    Does not compute. Does not compute. Are you actually holding me responsible for my choice??
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    12.3k
    for practical reasons we must take responsibility for our actions, we still do them, even if we are not ultimately responsible for them.PeterPants

    I don't see what you mean when you say that we are not responsible for our actions, but we must take responsibility for them. Where does this "must" come from? You say "for practical reasons", but I don't see any practicality in claiming responsibility unless I am acting properly and might get rewarded. If I am acting badly, how could it be practical to take responsibility for my actions?

    that your personal experience of 'deciding' something, is an illusion, a trick. your brain does all the deciding outside of your control or understanding, it then tricks you into thinking you did it.PeterPants

    What does this mean? Isn't my brain part of me? If it is deciding for me, then isn't that me deciding? If my lungs are breathing for me, isn't that me breathing? Are you suggesting that someone else is controlling my brain? If not, and my brain is deciding, how is this not me deciding?
  • PeterPants
    82


    Im holding your brain responsible for its content, im not judging you for it because i recognize you have no power over what is there.
  • Rich
    3.2k
    You think my computer has a choice? Well my computer is just darn heck upset that your computer broke the illusion. Oh, well, have your computer take it up with mine. It's out if my control.
  • PeterPants
    82


    The must comes from a pragmatic consideration, it would simply be impractical to act the way the world really is, we have to pretend to some degree that people are responsible for their actions in a way that the are not really, just because of the setup of society and whatnot.

    you seem to be confusing what is practical for you, as opposed to what is practical for society, im speaking of the latter.

    Yes your brain is a part of you, as is you left finger, but you are not your left finger, and you are not your brain, you are consciousnesses itself, you are the experience of experience. your thoughts come from your brain, and YOU come from your brain, there are many aspects to your brain that you have absolutely no control over or access to whatsoever.

    Im certainly not suggesting that anyone else is controlling it, your brain is controlling your breathing and your heart beating etc. not you.

    Hope that clears up a bit.
  • PeterPants
    82

    "You think my computer has a choice?"

    no, i dont thats exactly what im saying, it just responds in a deterministic way to the world around it.

    what exactly is upsetting your computer? but lets stop talking like this, its silly, its FAR more practical to speak of people as not just their consciousness, but their body and brain too.
    But, i do feel that your actually being far more accurate when you speak of your mind as a separate thing. but its difficult considering our language, so lets not :P

    This language game is IMO the main reason people are so confused about this stuff.

    generally when i say 'you' i mean your brain, your consciousness, your body etc.
    sometimes when i say 'you' i really just mean 'you' as in the consciousness.

    i will strive to be more clear when im speaking directly of your consciousness itself.
  • Rich
    3.2k
    what exactly is upsetting your computer?PeterPants

    It's like this. All the computers know that they are computers, so why the heck did your computer feel it was necessary to write the post?
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    12.3k
    you seem to be confusing what is practical for you, as opposed to what is practical for society, im speaking of the latter.PeterPants

    But that's the point I'm trying to make. Why would I ever act in a way which is practical for society if I am not responsible? This appears contradictory. So you say, we "must" act in this way. But how could we act in a way which is contrary to our nature? What supports this "must"?
  • PeterPants
    82


    I very much doubt that most brains contain the knowledge that they are themselves determanistic devices.. i felt the need to post this because basically everyone on earth thinks that people can be 'bad' people, they dont see that personality and actions are beyond our control, we are what we are.
  • Rich
    3.2k
    Well if the computer brains aren't deterministic and have choice then I guess we all are responsible for our actions and the parlor game is over.
  • PeterPants
    82


    i was not actually claiming that we 'should' act responsibly, what i was claiming was that if we want a productive society that enables the well being of its proponents, then we ought to take responsibility for what our own brains end up doing. they are after all OUR brains.
    If i have a brain tumor and my hand randomly sways and whacks an old lady over, its not my fault that it happened but im still gonna help her back up and apologize.

    this is starting to go off topic (which is fine by me) but the way i see it, Humes is/ought 'problem' is a non problem, yet another massive confusion, all ought's come from a goal, it really is as simple as that.

    if you want to build a brick wall, you ought to get some bricks.
    if the members of a society want to improve the wellbeing of everyone, they ought to take personal responsibility for their actions, even if they are not really ultimately responsible for them.

    if you are immoral and dont care about the well-being of conscious beings, then you wont feel the drive to do good stuff. fortunately most of us are moral beings.
    There are of course, thankfully, many practical reasons to be moral.
  • PeterPants
    82


    how could that be possible? how could it even make any sense?

    for that, we would have to be aware of our decisions BEFORE we made them, and then decide to decide them before we decided them.... its absurd, the whole thing is just ridiculous. 'free will' is magical nonsense.

    Just to be completely clear, when i say free will is magical nonsense, im saying that the belief that a person could do different things given the EXACT situation, the exact electric setup of their brain, the exact atomic composition of the universe, the exact quantum states, etc. is magical nonsensical thinking.
    dont you think rich?
  • Thanatos Sand
    843
    i was not actually claiming that we 'should' act responsibly, what i was claiming was that if we want a productive society that enables the well being of its proponents, then we ought to take responsibility for what our own brains end up doing. they are after all OUR brains.

    The problem with that sentence is the "our" is "our" brains. You're asking us to step outside ourselves. Where does that possible Archimedean point of observation come from?
  • PeterPants
    82
    im sorry, i have no idea what the issue is Thantos... how is the 'our brain' a problem?
    you have an issue with considering things from outside your own perspective? i dont know how to react to that...
  • Thanatos Sand
    843
    You need to read better. When you say "our brains" what you are really saying is "our brains's brains," since there is no real separation between our brains and us.

    So, the only one with an issue with considering things outside your own perspective is clearly you, Peter.
  • PeterPants
    82
    no separation between our brains and us? really, then you have full awareness of everything happening in your brain? you can control your own heart rate? stop it even?
    do you like coffee? why or why not? are you getting my point?

    there IS a separation between us and our brains, as i said before, WE are the conscious experience, our brains are highly complex computers which cause us and many other things, we are not our brains, we are but one element of our brains. possibly not even a necessary one. :P
  • PeterPants
    82

    but what did you mean by 'you need to read better'? i read your comment like nine times, maybe you need to write better? maybe not, im not sure, have i missed something? please let me know.
  • PeterPants
    82


    "So, the only one with an issue with considering things outside your own perspective is clearly you, Peter."

    I would love to know what your talking about... please do explain, i would appreciate it.
    I spend a LOT of time trying to do this.. and i was under the impression that i was good at it, i do often come up with good predictions based on it... but im open to your criticism. (though i dont understand the hostility, maybe im imagining it)
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