With our own experience of "women's liberation," not only have divorces and abortions increased, but so has the number of women and children involved in crime, as victims and perpetrators. — Athena

I haven't looked at the stats, but back in the day husbands could beat their wives and that was not a "crime". Now that it is, that might be one reason women are victims of more crimes. Isn't that a good thing? Crime stats are notorious for being mani[pulated not by human behavior, but by the justice system. If we legalized everything, there would be no crime.

Similarly, sexual liberation has probably led to more abortions (as has the legality of abortion). Do we really want to make abortion illegal again? Are the statistics about the number of abortions from when it was illegal accurate? I doubt it. Maybe we should go back to the days when Hester Prynne was forced to wear a scarlet "A".

I'll bet a lot of women whose husbands beat and abused them wanted to get divorced in the past, but were unable to, by law, or economic necessity, or custom. Was that a good thing?

Education, preparing our young for the military-industrial complex, has brought us to worsening social problems and cultural conflict that threatens the unity of the United States. — Athena

Trump is bad enough, but our "cultural conflict" is less problematic than during the Civil War (or even the Viet Nam war). Social problems were worse in the Depression -- and even in the 50s and 60s when many states had racially segregated schools, buses, etc. "Worsening"? I suppose they've worsened in the past year, but in general, they've been improving with time -- in part because of the liberation of women.

I think this is a stereotype and prejudice, not an actual reality.
— Philosophim

Please keep our hormonal differences in mind. — Athena

Oh, I'm responding specifically to Sushi. My issue is there was no science given to focus on, so it was going to descend into sexist opinions. I am very aware of many provable sex differences, hormones being one of the least important differences.

Ok, so you believe there is some innate biological drive in adult males and females to act a particular way.
— Philosophim

Yes, and thank goodness for the difference. — Athena

To me it doesn't matter that there is difference, only acknowledging and observing there is based on scientific facts, not culture or feelings.

To what extent do you agree that the basic[gender] roles of men and women are as follows.
1) Men provide for and protect women.
2) Women provide babies and protect them.

... these basic biological drives — I like sushi

I disagree that "[gender] roles" are equal to, or should be conflated with, supposed "basic biological drives". Afaik, males usually can impregnate females and females usually can give birth to live babies – anatomy is functional opportunity, not 'destiny' – and a not insignificant fraction of either sex is sterile/infertile or homosexual or (involuntarily) celibate; ergo, "provide" and "protect" are socialized – complementary hetero-normative (i.e. yinyang-like)– gender roles which are not 'determined' but are mostly only facilitated by biology (e.g. evolutionary psychology).

- What happens if women do not want to be provided for or protected by men. Meaning, what do men do instead to fill this gap?
- What happens if women do not want to bear children or protect children. Meaning, what do women do instead to fill this gap?

I guess they become incels and cat ladies, respectively; however, even in Western Liberal Patriarchy, the majority of women are not allowed these (anti-masculine / anti-natal) choices. :zip:

I am not talking about gender roles. I have not used the term 'gender' once. I am talking about distinct sexual differences and how they play out in human behaviour.

anatomy is functional opportunity, not 'destiny' — 180 Proof

No shit.

It is interesting to see that people can offer up thoughtful responses to something they believe is implied but when it comes to the question there are far fewer thoughtful answers offered.

What does being a 'cat lady' or 'incel' entail?

Abortion increase may have a lot more to do with the number of reported cases due to the actual medical technologies available.

I would be reluctant to suggest that any one thing has contributed to anything else. Maybe one thing is more significant than many others though.

Women's liberation did not liberate women to be true to their hormonal reality. Women's liberation made it taboo to be a natural woman, and it has demanded that she be like a man. — Athena

On point, Sis.

Just to be clear a difference can be "significant" yet significantly smaller than a different comparison. And what we're discussing is an excellent example.

Gobblygook. Bye

Trump is bad enough, but our "cultural conflict" is less problematic than during the Civil War (or even the Viet Nam war). Social problems were worse in the Depression -- and even in the 50s and 60s when many states had racially segregated schools, buses, etc. "Worsening"? I suppose they've worsened in the past year, but in general, they've been improving with time -- in part because of the liberation of women. — Ecurb

That's fine. I was just a housewife. What do I know?

On point, Sis. — L'éléphant

I do not know your meaning. If you are supporting the value of women who do not have college degrees and fantasic jobs, thank you. I do want to raise awareness, but I don't want to argue with people who are clueless about the value to society that women once were.

I would be reluctant to suggest that any one thing has contributed to anything else. Maybe one thing is more significant than many others though. — I like sushi

:lol: I think the best way to end thinking is to deny the truth of what is said. Because there can be multiple reasons for something, it does not make one of those reasons false. Right now, governments are alarmed by their declining birth rate.

I wish we could use AI because it supports what I said nicely and we might have conversation that is worth my effort. Every time I am confronted by this AI problem, I start wondering if I want return to the forum, especially when I stand alone with my argument, and I have the facts, but I can't use them.

Why in heaven's name do people want to deny the value of women that is based on our biological differences? This denial is a damn poor way to think about the present and our future, and it sure is not women's liberation!

I am very aware of many provable sex differences, hormones being one of the least important differences. — Philosophim

If that is true, demonstrate your knowledge of biological differences and justify that it is the least important fact. Personally, I feel like a woman, and that is very important to me. I have no desire to be a man.

- What happens if women do not want to be provided for or protected by men. Meaning, what do men do instead to fill this gap?
- What happens if women do not want to bear children or protect children. Meaning, what do women do instead to fill this gap?

And what happens if a woman does want to be a woman and to have children and stay home to care for them? What happens if she wants a man to be a man?

And what happens if a woman does want to be a woman and to have children and stay home to care for them? What happens if she wants a man to be a man? — Athena

You are not emulating your namesake, Athena, who was a virgin, childless goddess and (if I remember correctly) beat up Ares in the Iliad. Men ARE men -- we can't help it. But some of us prefer nurturing children to raking in the cash.

Arguments about nature vs. nurture are inconclusive. None of us would be what we are without both.

It is quite hard to know which thread to pull at in these comments. None of them seem reasonable except Athena, for what it's worth.

You are right. I have always had a problem with Athena favoring the patriarchy. I think a matriarchy may be better. Such as the Cherokee have. But ideals need to include our awareness of our past and how things are different today, and the age differences. There is a time to be a mother and a time to have a career.

What concerns me most is the freedom to be a woman and to be valued as one. This involves so many things, including our language. A google search reveals today's feminist and language concerns are different from mine. My concerns are very old and come from my return to college. I did a research paper on middle-aged women and learned that I had a domestic language, good for raising children and socializing with other mothers, but not for academic papers or a career. There are huge differences between being a full-time homemaker or having a career, and I am arguing in favor of maintaining that difference for social and political reasons.

We had an industry that was based on the domestic model, and that is different from the business model. I don't mean all industry has a domestic model, but that some industry did. We had a door industry that was based on the domestic model, and that would be family values. It was sold to outsiders, and the shit hit the fan. The new owners lacked the soul of the people who first created the business, and they did not succeed because the residents refused to cooperate with outsiders who saw this as just an economic affair, not people sharing a goal and the benefit.

The same has happened to our largest hospital. The owners bought the hospital from the nuns who established it. Its economic problem is growing, and nurses and doctors are not staying. Do I need to say the nuns were women, and the priests did not take an active role in establishing a hospital?

What is changing is more than our attitude about male and female roles.

Such as the Cherokee have — Athena

They are not matriarchal. They a matrilineal. A common mistake which leads to unfounded statements. Not in any way a stab at you - but it is wrong to claim the Cherokee did or do embody a matriarchy.

All that said, it was certainly more equitable than almost all other Native American societies.

:lol: I think the best way to end thinking is to deny the truth of what is said. Because there can be multiple reasons for something, it does not make one of those reasons false. — Athena

It seems like more and more people read what they think not what is written on this forum. I was not saying it was or was not a major factor only that in every complex social situation (all of them) there is always more than one driving element.

This entire OP is set up to explore ONE element though. Thank you for grasping that at least instead of arguing against strawmen :)

I would like to go deeper though. I heard someone speculate about how video games and social media in general have possibly fostered something like the kind of drives I am referring to. The advent of AI has led to AI substitutes for partners (teenagers seem susceptible to this I reckon more than most).

NOTE: For anyone else reading this the point is not to stereotype it is to look at broader patterns of human bahaviour. Stereotypical virtue signalling is BORING.

Congratulations, you said that very tactfully.
Importantly, matrilineal may include the inheritance of property and titles that go to the woman, not the man. She has value as a woman who owns the home, and this gives her voice a degree of power. That is a whole lot better than having no more rights than a slave. The White pioneer woman's reality, which some pioneer women strongly objected to when the US was fighting against slavery, but the nation was ignoring the White woman's slavery, which was called marriage. While Cherokee women had a strong voice, including governing and war decisions.

Enjoying being a woman does not mean being abused. Obviously, an abusive situation is not desirable. It is delightful to talk about this and what our hormones have to do with our behaviors.

For me, @AmadeusD expanded my thinking on the subject when he argued that the Cherokee have been matrilineal. I hate it when I speak of the value of women and my resentment of women's lib that demands we all be as males, and someone talks about all the bad of our past, women being abused, and preventing them from having careers, etc. That did not happen the same way in the Cherokee culture.

A culture based on the Bible has some problems because it is patriarchal. How sad this is to have a body that wants children, when the men are not the husbands and fathers that a family needs. Without the economic and social conditions for good families, men and women may not be the ideal people that happy and healthy families need.

I had to look up "AI substitutes for partners". I would love to try an AI romance. Even better would be a robot as in the British TV series "Humans". What is wrong with an imaginary romance or best friend?

1) Men provide for and protect women.
2) Women provide babies and protect them. — I like sushi

Too much generalisation. These days, women seem to be enjoying their freedom more than men. Protection is not a right word to describe the relationship. Relationship works under equality basis.