But I have one important question for you on this matter: What if "science" is the same faith, with only a new idol? — Astorre

What can be the idol of correct information? Science is a process, not a being of any kind. There is no god to please, only right or wrong decisions, based on what we believe to be true, and Cicero is one of many who believed our survival depends on making the right decisions.

I agree that even scientists can hold the wrong understanding, and it has become common to completely change what we believe when we make new discoveries. This is definitely so when it comes to archeology and geology, and the understanding of our planet and human evolution. If the Bible had been written during the ice age, we would not have gotten the story of Eden, and the belief that the earth was made by a god, especially for us. That understanding of reality just does not go with living in an ice age. Genghis Khan and the mongols who lived in a harsh climate, thought the Christians were nuts to believe in a god who takes care of people. From the harsh climate of the Mongols, a god just assume kill pathetic human beings. And morals were based on the fact that leaving someone out in the cold could be a death sentence- a way of thinking that led Khan to think city people are very immoral.

What we are learning is the result of new and exciting technology. And the way we think about animals and humanity is changing. We now know all religions have the equivalent of the Ten Commandments, because civilizations demand we live by rules of decency. Joseph Campbell said God spoke to everyone, but our stories are different because our environments were different.

Today, with technology giving us better information, we can know that all civilizations have the same values. There is no evidence of a God with favorite people who are blessed, in a world of evil people who must be destroyed. The conflict of good and evil was well known to the Persians and Zoroastrianism. Many believe that several Bible stories are plagiarized from Sumerian stories. The mythological stories are so similar that thinking only one set of stories is God's truth is incomprehensible.
I believe the knowledge we are gaining from technology is leading us into a New Age, when people actually know the truth and live with it rather than false beliefs.

That was way too many words, but it is everything together that gives me hope for a New Age. Technology is important to the development of Consciousness. God is asleep in rocks and minerals, waking in plants and animals, to know self in man.

"Since, according to the theory of evolution, the fittest wins, then why should I spare the unfit?" — Astorre

That is not the theory of evolution that is supported by the study of DNA. Here is a science that had to wait until we had the technology, and it goes with everything I have already said. Studying DNA has greatly helped us understand our evolution since the last ice age, and that information is linked to information from geology and archaeology. We are very fortunate to have this flood of information, made possible by new technologies. Life is so much better than it was and it may even get better.

This approach requires numerous supports and begins to look like a building without a foundation. But the problem is that an inquisitive (scientific) mind will peer into these holes and ask something like this: "Since, according to the theory of evolution, the fittest wins, then why should I spare the unfit?" Let's try a thought experiment and look at the United States in this paradigm, further developing your critique. The United States asks: "Since we've managed to create a perfect (currently) legal, banking, and government system, why shouldn't the rest of the world work for us?" "What moral justification does Iran have for owning oil, for example, if we're stronger than them?" Or: "Denmark has turned Greenland into a miserable place, why not take it away and make it a paradise using science and technology?" — Astorre

I want it clear that I build my foundation on science.

Who in blazes says the US has created a perfect legal, banking, and government system? :brow: I don't know anyone who believes that. It was not that long ago that we had a banking crisis that spread to all the Industrial countries. We are presently on the edge of panic as our national debt spins more and more out of control. Sooo many things are going wrong who thinks we have a perfect system?

I don't know about everyone else, but I believe the US has exploited our mineral wealth and spent it all, and we are not a treadmill that can't stop, so we have taken on extreme debt. We are the military industrial complex that we defended democracy from.

There is no justification for what we did in Vetnaum, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Israel, Cuba, Venezuela, and Greenland.

That is the military industrial complex we fought against, but we are good evangelical
Christians and God wants us to fight those evil people, and He blesses us, so what is your problem with what the US is doing? That is sarcastic! I have a huge problem with what is happening.

There is no justification for what we did in Vetnaum, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Israel, Cuba, Venezuela, and Greenland. — Athena

:grimace: :grimace:

Do you have answers within your approach?

And the most remarkable thing will happen next. Criticism from within the US is pointless, because the critics themselves thrive on this approach. Workers are paid a decent wage, scientists are paid a decent wage, and the elderly are supported. This prosperity is possible, in part, because it was previously taken away by the empire from those same poor souls drilling oil wells somewhere in Asia, and their children. — Astorre

I have just deleted my reply because I am listening to an explanation of a computer problem, and it has nothing to do with what I think is important, making me realize how pointless my thoughts are. Maybe in the morning I feel differently about this, but this evening I am very discouraged.

I deeply apologize if you were offended by what I wrote. I didn't mean to offend, but rather to ask questions, even if they weren't entirely pleasant.

:lol: I have to laugh at myself because I know better than to post things when I am tired, and yet I do it. Why is it sometimes so hard to go with our better judgment? I need an AI screener that shuts down my computer before I make a fool of myself.

The explanation of a serious AI problem that I watched last night is that people are charging an extreme amount of money for computer programs that do not work. This is destroying trust, and when there is no trust, there is no business. On the good side, there was a medical discovery done with AI that will save lives. So maybe we should recognize some limits to what AI can do well and what AI does not do so well.

The US has made many enemies, and perhaps it would help if the world understood we are spending far more than our income. We are running on credit, and that is not sustainable. And our whole house of cards would collapse if the world stopped trading oil in dollars. We have a very serious problem with the increasing cost of housing and increasing homelessness. And we do not have a good support system for elders who are not personally wealthy. As someone on the inside, I would say we are dealing with a lot of fear, and that is fertile ground for wars such as our war on immigrants, who are our current whipping boy. "a person who is blamed or punished for the faults or incompetence of others". People who are aware of this and have joined in the protest against ICE are being killed. Evangelists are celebrating what appears to prove the Bible is right about the last days.

With all that bad, we have AI that is totally awesome because it makes so much information available, and as I see things, that gives us hope. In the past, we were ignorant, superstitious, dirty, and germ-ridden. We were often mean and violent and went to witch burnings as a form of entertainment. I want to argue that human beings are not by nature horrible, but when the conditions of life are bad, humans are not refined, and like the angels. Understanding what our conditions have to do with our humanness could be an improvement over believing it is just our nature to be bad. When humans' bellies are full, and they feel secure, they can be a force for good. Making AI taboo holds us back in ignorance and there is no hope.

"What makes many applications of artificial intelligence so disturbing is that they don’t expand our mind’s capacity to think, but outsource it…" — Questioner

What are those applications that are disturbing? I look around me and see a lot of ignorance. With AI there is no excuse for ignorance because it is so easy to get information. This is not the same world we had a few hundred years ago. Where should stop developing the sources of information? Should we stop with papers tacked on a church door? Stop with newspapers, or radios or television. This thread is about AI, so should we put the brakes on by limiting what our personal computers can do?

For me, ignorance is the source of evil. What are the problems you see?

AI is excellent for research, but the information should always be verified.

And when we do give over our thinking to AI, yes, thinking atrophies in us

Also, I mentioned those abilities are uniquely human - including creating art. Art by its very definition is a human capacity - it can only be produced by human feeling.

And finally, humans themselves. What should they do? What should they do? Even in everyday life, machines already do our laundry, robot vacuums, and so on. And tomorrow, will a specially trained robot entertain and educate our children? Provide attention to our wives? What will remain for us? — Astorre

Are we anywhere near this yet? If you want household chores properly done, you hire someone to do them or do them yourself. Robot vacuums are pretty shit, and who actually uses machines for most of these tasks?

But if machines and AI replace humans, this could be a great thing. Many, perhaps most, jobs are shit. Imagine lawyers being replaced by AI, this could democratise access to the law.

We seem addicted to catastrophic visions of the future. It passes as common sense that everything is getting worse and that the future will be apocalyptic. But so far, in my lifetime (in the West), things have been better every decade in terms of technology and available free time. Many of us currently seem to be hypervigilant, spotting impending disasters everywhere: environmental, political, technological. Every cloud seems to have a grimy lining.

And when we do give over our thinking to AI, yes, thinking atrophies in us — Questioner

:lol: :rofl: Not nearly as much as the brains of most of the people I know who make no effort to learn anything, and evidently have zero curiosity. The only thing they can talk about is themselves because they don't know anything else and don't care. If you all are surrounded by intellectual people, I would like to know where you find them.