we can accurate determine whether there is a direct correlation between being trans and being autistic. — AmadeusD

then the independent variable would be "autism/non-autism" and the dependent variable would be the incidence of transgenderism

If it were not a self-image problem, we would not be hearing about it. — AmadeusD

Let's look at this again. I had some difficulty with the word "image" because it tended to ignore the deeply embedded self-identity created in one's mind. But maybe that's where self-image is created, too. So, with transgender persons, I would imagine that the image they have of themselves does not align with the image portrayed by their outside body.

But this is not scientific certainty.
— Philosophim

And your theory is? — Questioner

That we need to do more research to figure it out, and in the mean time find the best approach with what we know now.

We're still not quite certain what causes people to be gay, much less transgender.
— Philosophim

here's the thing - why is a scientific theory need to believe people when they tell us who they are? Yes, science marches on, but if I talk face-to-face with a person who shares their experience, I am going to try to understand, not judge them. — Questioner

I didn't say people didn't have gender dysphoria. Of course I seek to understand. Sometimes you understand and disagree with a person. Understanding does not mean acceptance of what you are told. Surely you understand what I'm saying but disagree.

As for 'trans gender' like a boy liking dolls, I just view that as sexist language. And I think you can decide to be, or not be sexist.
— Philosophim

You are still not getting the concept of gender identity being imprinted in the brain. — Questioner

This is not an argument or a discussion you're presenting. This is an emotional accusation. Do you want to talk with me, or at me? I used to try talking to people to persuade them that gay marriage was ok. Your hostility and approach are sounding similar to many religious zealot's approach with me.

No, transgenderism is absolutely an ideology.
— Philosophim

Not to the transgender person. — Questioner

I spent a little time and writing to flesh out why. This is not a discussion from you about what was said. This is you just saying "No".

Gender, the term in itself, is not an ideology. Its simply an assertion that people have a belief about how men and women should act in society.
— Philosophim

No, no, no, no, no. Please re-read all of my previous posts. — Questioner

I can see this isn't going to go anywhere then. You have already decided on your rightness, and there is not a discussion to be had. Very well then, let it end.

We might also say its selfish, narcissistic, deluded, and/or sexist.
— Philosophim

I feel sorry for your transgender friend you have mentioned in the past. I don't think you can be a very good friend. — Questioner

I am only commenting on this because I want you to pause. Were you a good person for saying this? Do you know the bond my friend and I have had for years? The pain he had as he confided over months and made his decision? The fact that I've supported him in his transition? No. You do not.

I invite you with a hand shake, and you bite my hand. Your sympathy is not for people, but for your own purpose. You are merely another ideologue that seeks to hurt what will not bend to your will. Its one of the worst evils we can sink to.

Transgender individuals experiencing dysphoria are literally and biologically less connected to their bodies. — Questioner

My position has been that gender identity is something formed during fetal development, during the differentiation and organization of the brain during the third trimester of pregnancy.

People do not "decide" to become transgender - they are born that way. — Questioner

It is obvious that transgender individuals are "less connected to their bodies". WE don't need studies of fetal development to figure that out.

Of course it is interesting to try to understand the causes of transgenderism (is that a word?). But it is irrelevant politically and ethically. Acceptance of trans people (and that includes using their new names and pronouns) is a matter of decency and good manners. If some transgender individuals are "born that way" and others are not, would it be reasonable to discriminate against the latter group, but not the former?

transgenderism (is that a word?) — Ecurb

I'm not sure. It doesn't sound right, does it?

Acceptance of trans people (and that includes using their new names and pronouns) is a matter of decency and good manners. — Ecurb

Agreed.

If some transgender individuals are "born that way" and others are not, would it be reasonable to discriminate against the latter group, but not the former? — Ecurb

I would say that discrimination is never reasonable?

Although I am not quite sure what you mean. Could you help me understand with an example?

By insisting that gender identity develops in utero, you suggest that it is biological, like sex. But gender is culturally determined. So attempting to redefine it as biological supports the notion that proper use of gendered pronouns (for example) is biologically determined. I disagree. It's a matter of politely accepting the gender identity of others, whether or not it is biologically determined.

why is a scientific theory need to believe people when they tell us who they are? — Questioner

Rachel. Dolezal. A bit quippy, but that is why. We want to know who the people around us are - I do not want to date a male, when I have intended to date a female and I am well within my rights to hold that view, and react "badly" if that deception was perpetrated on me. If your entire point is to "pass" as the opposite sex (which is what transition is for, by and large) then that is at least partially the intention. I see no malice or anything else in this, but it is deceptive and those caught by the deception are justified in being unhappy about it. Not because they're, for instance, homophobic, but because they did not consent to the situation they are in. I think its key to remember that many objections within this milieu are actually not to do with the person being trans at all. This can be gleaned from the sports debate - whereas most people (i think this is even true for lets say "pro-trans" people) agree males should not be competing against females in, at the extreme least, combat sport - Not because they are trans, but because they are male - if a transman wanted to compete, go ahead. But you'll notice the issue is the potential for harm, which results from males in female spaces - the fact of "trans" is relevant except insofar as it caused the situation. All that might sound mealy-mouthed, but I think its correct. I certainly have no issue with trans people per se, but will go to the mat on several issues in this thread for reasons that happen to be in the orbit.

All they ask is that basic rights not be denied — Questioner

That is definitely not the case for all - and certainly not hte most visible. The right for a male to enter female spaces is not 'basic'. This said, you have to be honest and acknowledge that plenty of trans people (most, TRAs which I understand in any group are usually the worst) want privileges. Demanding free surgeries is an example. Elective, cosmetic surgery is not a healthcare issue and it has been shown that medical transition does not improve mental health long term when controlled well, rather than relying on short-term self-report.

You fail to grasp the argument. Transgender persons only want to live their own truth. — Questioner

I would have agreed with this, if TRAs and the entire ideological movement didn't also exist besides trans people who want to do this. I think the concept of "my truth" is absolutely unacceptable in a civilized society, so we're going to disagree on that anyway - but just on empirical grounds, the people Phil and I and referencing (and we need to be honest about this, as above) are overly, explicitly and aggressive expecting/demanding that others live "their truth" (i.e the trans person's "truth") despite either believing it is a lie, or not really caring enough to engage. You don't have to take part in my self-image, and you don't have to take part in mine - again, even if* it reflects some "true" tension between the mind and body in an individual.
* I don't believe it does anymore than Children claiming to be x are in most cases. I just htink trans people are reasonable, intelligent and adult in most cases.

I would have agreed with this, if TRAs and the entire ideological movement didn't also exist besides trans people who want to do this. I think the concept of "my truth" is absolutely unacceptable in a civilized society, so we're going to disagree on that anyway - but just on empirical grounds, the people Phil and I and referencing (and we need to be honest about this, as above) are overly, explicitly and aggressive expecting/demanding that others live "their truth" (i.e the trans person's "truth") despite either believing it is a lie, or not really caring enough to engage. You don't have to take part in my self-image, and you don't have to take part in mine - again, even if* it reflects some "true" tension between the mind and body in an individual. — AmadeusD

I don't buy it. I doubt many trans people want to "pass" so they can date. If you know someone well enough to "date" (have sex with), you would probably know if he or she were trans. So desired pronouns indicate a public identity, whereas sexual activity is private.

Nor are using desired pronouns "a lie", because pronouns (these days) refer to gender, not to biological sex. The "truth" is that a transwoman is a woman, in terms of her public image, persona, and gender. Therefore the "lie" would be referring to her as "he" or "him" (given the current definition of these pronouns).

I don't buy it. I doubt many trans people want to "pass" so they can date. — Ecurb

"many" is doing a lot of lifting here, but I'm not complaining. You could be right (althought, i have an extremely hard time believing that there isn't at least a desire for this in trans people in general - that's one of the primary reasons for transition - not "to date" but to experience life at the opposite gender which in the case of a straight person, would mean becoming same-gender attracted and dating in that milieu being different to that you're in when dating "straight" prior to transition.

But I agree, it's not going to be some wide-spread intentional thing among "trans people" so you're right to put nuance in that. I do not mean to intimate some assumption about trans people dating. Although.. (see below)

So desired pronouns indicate a public identity, whereas sexual activity is private. — Ecurb

This is true, but (again, I think this is an honestly issue, even if uncomfortable) you can find umpteen videos on the internet of vlogging transwomen (almost solely, though not exclusively) crying in their car because they did not tell their date they were trans, and when it came up the date ended. It seems more likely that a fear of rejection leads to this dishonesty. Fear of rejection is not novel, special or particular to the trans experience. Its certainly heightened, but that is because you are essentially looking to fulfil a role that the other person cannot have you in - and are within their rights to feel that way. There is also the irony that "rejection" is a much, much bigger risk to the person when they have been dishonest.

There is the trope about a trans woman being at risk when a straight make takes her home and finds out she's trans. Yep, and that' abhorrent and should never, ever happen - homophobia (or, self-hatred) should never cause harm to others. BUT - why wouldn't you have said you were trans? Because you wanted to pass, right? You knew that the person knowing you were male would end the date. There is a non-zero number of situations where a transwoman has gone out with a man, passed, ended up in the bedroom and then the man realises and complains - the transwoman generally will not understand why there's such vitriol. Well, buddy, because that's essentially sexual assault. You did not gain honest consent. You deceived.

When I say "the people Phil and I are talking about" I am indicating precise this type of person. Who inarguably exist. My wife and I have both dated trans people in the past and both been lied to about their identity. In my case, it wasn't a big deal because as soon as I met the woman in person, it was patently obvious she was male and had edited her pictures. Luckily, I'm not all the way straight so we still shot the shit and had a good night.
My wife was not so lucky. A rather mentally unstable transman tried to claim her newborn as his own, in an attempt to "pass as male" - telling his friends he was my stepson's father in front of her, when they'd known each other two weeks. These are people we are referring to - they aren't vanishingly prevalent, but you're right that its not a majority - the point is we're not saying it is. We're just trying to talk about that group.

We should probably also be careful not to fall in to certain holes about that - there is a line that men are less positive toward trans partners due to https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11199-025-01586-2?utm_source=chatgpt.com. That is bogus. They are straight men (aside:the fact that things are worded this way, even within the studies is certainly interesting to the pronoun issue)

The "truth" is that a transwoman is a woman, in terms of her public image, persona, and gender. Therefore the "lie" would be referring to her as "he" or "him" (given the current definition of these pronouns). — Ecurb

I reject almost everything that underlies this sort of claim. Not quite hte place for that discussion - Phil's other thread is the place for that if you'd like to go there.