Isn't the more important thing to get rid of slavery and prejudice? "Lets fix a wrong with a wrong" is not a solution in an advanced culture. This is also a gross exaggeration of what transitioned people have to do through in the West. You can show up transitioned at work, everyone knows you're a trans person, and harassment and mistreatment isn't tolerated. So, lets assume that a transitioned person can go to work, has to use their natal sex bathroom, does not get called pronouns by gender, but their natal sex, and people treat them just like anyone else otherwise. You now have zero cause. Meaning your cause was never the right cause, only a poor compensation to handle a bigger cause. — Philosophim

Who cares what bathroom people use? OK -- ideally, we would get rid of prejudice. Even if we did, though, some trans people would prefer others using their new pronouns. Out of kindness and good manners, we should all comply. If someone changes his or her name, do you insist on calling him or her by their birth name (many names are gendered)? Why insist on their birth gender? "Gender" is used to modify nouns in many languages, and it is often arbitrary. At work, and among close acquaintances most people would presumably know that the trans person was trans. It's still good manners to use their preferred pronouns, just as it would be to use their new name (if they have one).

Which is more important socially? Biology, or kindness, respect for identity, and honoring the wishes of others? In a social situation, shouldn't social reality trump biological reality?

In addition, it is incorrect to say the "people treat them (people of different genders) just like anyone else". WE all have been enculturated to treat women different from men. OF course, it may be true that this involves prejudice. The chivalry of "women and children first to the lifeboats" is great for women, except that it compares them to helpless children. It remains the case that gender influence social interactions, possibly due to prejudice, possibly due to differing training and upbringings. Perhaps trans people want to be treated (and act) in accordance with their new gender.

Who cares what bathroom people use? — Ecurb

Generally the people of a particular sex for the bathrooms. There are clearly signs marked men and women right? So obviously a lot of people care. But that's not an argument or the point of the discussion.

OK -- ideally, we would get rid of prejudice. Even if we did, though, some trans people would prefer others using their new pronouns. — Ecurb

No objection at all, they are free to do so.

Out of kindness and good manners, we should all comply. — Ecurb

Why? How have you reasoned this is good? This seems to me that you've been told this is good. Have you questioned it? Feel free to explain it to me.

If someone changes his or her name, do you insist on calling him or her by their birth name (many names are gendered)? — Ecurb

If its a legal name change, no. If its not a legal name change, I'm under no obligation to call them a name they've made up for themselves. Can I call them that? Yes. Do I have to or is it considered good manners? Not at all. That's up to the each individual to decide. Its called consent. When you ask someone to lie or do something that isn't a legal qualifier, that person needs to give consent. You don't get to guilt, shame, or mark a person who does not give consent as immoral. If a woman turned down a man's sexual advances, should the woman be shamed? The man who wanted the advances returned might, but we've learned that's the real shameful behavior.

Back to your earlier point, asking someone to call you the sex that you aren't, is an act of asking consent. Not politeness, obligation, moral certainty, or anything equaling good. Its a social request, and one everyone is free to turn down. That is what is moral, good, and polite. Asking consent, and accepting the answer given no matter if its affirmative or negative.

Why insist on their birth gender? — Ecurb

There is no birth gender. Gender is a prejudice about a person's sex. There is only birth sex. Everyone's prejudices about the sexes is different, and prejudice should never be held as something we should uphold in any capacity.

At work, and among close acquaintances most people would presumably know that the trans person was trans. It's still good manners to use their preferred pronouns — Ecurb

No, because most people use pronouns for sex, not gender. You're asking a person to use pronouns in a prejudicial way instead of a biological way. Politeness is asking for consent and accepting when a person says no. I for one do not like to participate in sexism. I don't think the way a man or woman looks or dresses changes who they are by sex, and I think 'gender' is just prejudice that I don't want to partake in. Wouldn't I be the person with the higher moral standards here? If not, why not?

Which is more important socially? Biology, or kindness, respect for identity, and honoring the wishes of others? In a social situation, shouldn't social reality trump biological reality? — Ecurb

Instead of asking me, I want to hear your viewpoint. What do you think? This isn't a trap or anything, I genuinely want to know where your thought process is so I can better speak with you.

In addition, it is incorrect to say the "people treat them (people of different genders) just like anyone else". WE all have been enculturated to treat women different from men. OF course, it may be true that this involves prejudice. — Ecurb

The important part that we agree on here is that gender is prejudice. To be clear, we need to separate gender from sex expectation which involves biological reality. For example, most women bleed once a month. Should we allow facilities in the bathroom for this particular issue? Yes. But that's not gender, that's objective biological reality. There may be a confusion that conflates gender with sex. They are not the same at all. Gender is "I think women shouldn't wear top hats." That's it. Its a subjective opinion that can be shared among a culture in how a man or woman should act in society that has nothing to do with their objective biological reality.

If we know that men are taller on average than women, and we are making a shelf height in a place that primarily caters to women, making the shelf height to the average of female heights is not gender or prejudice, its simply adjusting to expected sex differences. All of this is fine.

The chivalry of "women and children first to the lifeboats" is great for women, except that it compares them to helpless children. — Ecurb

Yes, and isn't the real issue that we need to get rid of this prejudice? Not avoid the issue with equally poor behavior? If you lie to listen to it, you're tacitly agreeing with it. That doesn't change things or make a better world.

It remains the case that gender influence social interactions, possibly due to prejudice, possibly due to differing training and upbringings. — Ecurb

And do you think that's good or that we should accept that? I don't. Is that a problem?

Perhaps trans people want to be treated (and act) in accordance with their new gender. — Ecurb

I would tell anyone that wants to double down on prejudice or sexism not to. I would also tell a person that they shouldn't live their life by how they want people to look at them, as that's also a fool's errand. People are going to have their own judgements about you no matter what you do. Its best to just live your life for you, and live despite other people's expectations of you.

If its a legal name change, no. If its not a legal name change, I'm under no obligation to call them a name they've made up for themselves. Can I call them that? Yes. Do I have to or is it considered good manners? Not at all. That's up to the each individual to decide. Its called consent. — Philosophim

Not true. Of course it's a mere vernal sin to call people by one name when they've asked to be called by another. Nonetheless, kind, well-mannered people won't do it. You don't "have to" -- but it's rude not to.

The same is true for titles. If someone asks to be called Ms. Jones instead of Mrs. Jones, it's rude not to comply. Why should pronouns be so different? Is it so important to recognize a genetic or biological truth in a pronoun? Doesn't finding that important indicate prejudice? And if it isn't important, why not act in the interest of kindness and comply with the person's wishes?

Your seeming obsession with the topic is bizarre. Let's just try to get along, and when people ask us the favor of referring to them by a particular name or pronoun (which may be different from their birth assignment) why get all hoity-toity about it? Wouldn't it be kinder and easier just to do them that small favor?

Not true. Of course it's a mere vernal sin to call people by one name when they've asked to be called by another. Nonetheless, kind, well-mannered people won't do it. You don't "have to" -- but it's rude not to. — Ecurb

No, you need to clarify why its rude, not merely declare it. It is not rude to not give consent to lying, duplicity, or pretend games because it makes another person feel good. This is the same line selfish men and women use when they hit on someone and there's rejection. Yes, rejection can make another person feel bad, but when that rejection is about consent, the person who is rejected needs to behave like a proper adult, not take it personally, and respect that the other person had no obligation to agree to the request.

The same is true for titles. If someone asks to be called Ms. Jones instead of Mrs. Jones, it's rude not to comply. Why should pronouns be so different? — Ecurb

Fair question. Titles are indicators of both sex and marriage status. Ms. is marriage status neutral, while Mrs. is not. If someone is not married and tells me to call them Mrs. anyway because they hate feeling like they aren't married, they're asking me to lie for their emotional benefit. That's a consent request. I am not obligated to, it is not polite to, or moral to say yes. That is my personal choice.

Pronouns for most people represent sex indicators, not gender. Meaning if I see that you're a female acting like a male, I'm still accurate and truthful in labeling you 'her'. That's not rude. That's not impolite. If someone is personally bothered by a normal interaction, that is for them to deal with, not anyone else. If they ask me to lie to them, or use pronouns in a way I wouldn't normally, that's fine. But its a consent request again, not an obligation, a moral certitude, or even polite. I have full choice to accept or reject without any wrongdoing on my part either way.

Is it so important to recognize a genetic or biological truth in a pronoun? Doesn't finding that important indicate prejudice? And if it isn't important, why not act in the interest of kindness and comply with the person's wishes? — Ecurb

All good questions again.

1. Many of us like to use language to convey what we believe and see about the world. It is important for many of us not to lie where possible. Some people don't mind. Others do. That's why its a consent request.

2. A prejudice is a 'pre-judgement' about some thing. So if I looked at a woman and thought, "Women should wear dresses all the time," that's a prejudice. My noting that a woman is a woman, and me being right about that (woman meaning 'adult human female') is the exact denial of prejudice. There is no pre-judgement anymore, there is simply the fact of the matter.

3. Because you have not demonstrated why it is kind to lie. Or why it is kind to request that another person lie for your personal benefit. I do not find it kind it most situations. If someone is walking around saying they're a man when they're clearly not, its not kind to lie to them for their feelings. I respect people's intellect and maturity. If I think you can't handle being told basic facts or truths, its because I think you're an inferior person to me. Should I treat trans gender people like they're inferior to me, mentally incapable of handling the fact that I see their natal sex? Or should I treat them like they're an adult and can handle it? I think the later is kindness and respect, the former is pity and patronizing.

Your seeming obsession with the topic is bizarre. — Ecurb

Why is it an obsession? I've written many different philosophical discussions, and only two on trans gender issues over two months. I would hardly call that an obsession. Obviously its a current event topic that lots of people feel the need to talk about. Isn't talking about things good? We're both communicating our side and treating each other like adults who can handle each other's differences.

Let's just try to get along, and when people ask us the favor of referring to them by a particular name or pronoun (which may be different from their birth assignment) why get all hoity-toity about it? — Ecurb

Because I am allowed the respect of my consent. And you don't get to disparage me for deciding what I do, and do not consent to in my life. Trans gender people do not have anything special about them over myself. Just as I would not expect that its moral to violate their consent either.

Wouldn't it be kinder and easier just to do them that small favor? — Ecurb

No as I've mentioned above. Philosophically, instead of asserting that this is moral, make a case that it is. Why are their feelings more important than my consent? Why is it kind to tell them something we both know isn't true?

Pronouns for most people represent sex indicators, not gender. — Philosophim

What planet do you live on? These days, for most people pronouns represent gender indicators.

Because I am allowed the respect of my consent. And you don't get to disparage me for deciding what I do, and do not consent to in my life — Philosophim

We have freedom of speech. That includes your right to misgender people, and my right to disparage you for it. I'm not threatening to throw you in prison, or fine you.

With regard to lies: I'm a fan of Mark Twain, who said, "Show me a man who don't lie and I'll show you a man who ain't got much to say." Generous, good-natured lies harm no one, facilitate happiness and lubricate social interaction. Lies in and of themselves are not wicked; they are wicked only if harmful or malicious.

Your "consent" is trivial. Charity and a lack of egoism suggests their feeling are more important.

Pronouns for most people represent sex indicators, not gender.
— Philosophim

What planet do you live on? These days, for most people pronouns represent gender indicators. — Ecurb

Incorrect. Most people do not even understand gender as used in gender theory. And you did not invalidate my point that there are people who do use pronouns to refer to sex. The "What planet do you live on?" is an indicator of your frustration in realizing you can't counter that point. I have not been disrespectful towards you. Initial disrespect is always an indicator that you are losing the discussion.

We have freedom of speech. That includes your right to misgender people, and my right to disparage you for it. I'm not threatening to throw you in prison, or fine you. — Ecurb

And where did I say I would be thrown into prison or fined? That's irrelevant. If you want to disparage my consent, that's fine. But then I hold the moral high ground, and you don't. There's one common thing among all criminals: The disparagement of consent.

With regard to lies: I'm a fan of Mark Twain, who said, "Show me a man who don't lie and I'll show you a man who ain't got much to say." — Ecurb

So you are agreeing with me that its a lie, and that people are being asked to lie for someone else's feelings.

Generous, good-natured lies harm no one, facilitate happiness and lubricate social interaction. Lies in and of themselves are not wicked; they are wicked only if harmful or malicious. — Ecurb

And yet you disregarded my entire point above that these are not good natured or harmless lies. You are claiming they are good natured, you have not given any points indicating they actually are. I find your request quite evil at this point. This is coming from an atheist as well.

Your "consent" is trivial. — Ecurb

If your 'good natured lies' make my consent trivial, then you share the same mentality as a thief. Your argument essentially says my consent is irrelevant, and I should just lie for social cohesion. You have not yet given a good reason why my consent is irrelevant, or why the request for another person to lie isn't itself a violation of social cohesion. I would say a much better social situation is to be among people who can be honest with each other and trust each other to speak honestly.

I'm not seeing a very good moral justification from you, and your disregard of consent puts you at being morally suspect at this point. Please take your next post seriously and put some effort in giving some substantive reasoning and even a little willingness to consider the importance of consent. If you don't do that, I don't think there's a single person who could reasonably confirm that what you're saying is good.

Incorrect. Most people do not even understand gender as used in gender theory. And you did not invalidate my point that there are people who do use pronouns to refer to sex. The "What planet do you live on?" is an indicator of your frustration in realizing you can't counter that point. I have not been disrespectful towards you. Initial disrespect is always an indicator that you are losing the discussion. — Philosophim

Oh, bunk. "What planet do you live on" was shorthand for saying language evolves and most educated people are now aware that pronouns refer to gender, these days.

So you are agreeing with me that its a lie, and that people are being asked to lie for someone else's feelings. — Philosophim

No. As should be obvious from my posts.

I am saying, "Even if, as is not the case, you are correct that using new pronouns for someone's gender is a lie, it is still not wicked."

If your 'good natured lies' make my consent trivial, then you share the same mentality as a thief. — Philosophim

Oh, no! Horrors! Well, I perhaps lack some respect for property rights. You misrepresent my position
(despite my clear posts). Your consent is irrelevant because it would be a trivial favor on your part to use the gender pronouns people desire. Trans people (about whom I know very little) are probably obsessive about their gender (why else would they bother becoming trans). So I assume it's more important to them than it would be to you (if you have normal sensibilities).

Oh, bunk. "What planet do you live on" was shorthand for saying language evolves and most educated people are now aware that pronouns refer to gender, these days. — Ecurb

Ok, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. I've come across the wrong way before as writing lacks non-verbal. To your point, its unknown how many educated people use pronouns to refer to sex. I'm educated for example, and I've always used pronouns to reference sex, not gender.

So you are agreeing with me that its a lie, and that people are being asked to lie for someone else's feelings.
— Philosophim

No. As should be obvious from my posts. — Ecurb

With regard to lies: I'm a fan of Mark Twain, who said, "Show me a man who don't lie and I'll show you a man who ain't got much to say." Generous, good-natured lies harm no one, facilitate happiness and lubricate social interaction. Lies in and of themselves are not wicked; they are wicked only if harmful or malicious. — Ecurb

Then why did you mention the above if there are no lies involved?

If your 'good natured lies' make my consent trivial, then you share the same mentality as a thief.
— Philosophim

Oh, no! Horrors! — Ecurb

Yes. Every single criminal act, every single violation of another human being involves violating their consent. Its not something to be taken lightly. Notice how I'm not mocking a trans person's request for pronouns. I'm listening, I'm considering it, and stating its up to every individual to concede whether they wish to do something against their nature for the other person. I just ask the same consideration and respect back.

Your consent is irrelevant because it would be a trivial favor on your part to use the gender pronouns people desire. — Ecurb

"Its ok to steal five dollars because he has a lot of money and won't miss it." "Its ok if I copped a feel quickly, she'll get over it." These are the excuses of people who do wrong to others. They discount other's personal boundaries, their viewpoints for personal benefit at another's expense. That's what being a terrible person is.

I do not mind if a trans person asks me to partake in the implication that transition has made them the other sex. I clearly do not see any moral justification for me to partake in this besides its what they want. And my decision not to should be just as respected as their decision to be on hormones and dress in a manner associated with the opposite sex.

You yourself have discounted and not listened to my clear points in the last posts as to why its important to me that I refuse to go along with their view of themselves. If I went and told a trans gender person, "I don't care if you feel like a woman, just suck it up for social cohesion," you would have an issue wouldn't you? Then why do you not have an issue telling me to suck it up for social cohesion? Morality seeks equal rational treatment between parties. You have not proposed that.

Do you see your moral certitude lacks consistency? Instead of an ask for a group, this seems more like a power play. That's not anything good or moral. My viewpoint is morally consistent. I simply ask that my consent or lack thereof to not lie to someone else be respected and understood as my moral right. From my view point still, I hold the moral view point while you seem to want to violate consent for the emotions of a particular group of people.

Trans people (about whom I know very little) are probably obsessive about their gender (why else would they bother becoming trans).. So I assume it's more important to them than it would be to you (if you have normal sensibilities). — Ecurb

What an inane assumption. I just told you why its important to me. And consent is not about whether someone thinks its more important. If a man raped a woman because he thought his desire was more important than her desire not to sleep with him, that makes it right? And you don't even know any trans people. I do. And I know a few who agree with everything I've posted here. Trans gender people are not a monolithic hive mind.

So instead, of making naive moral assumptions and assertions, take a step back and go step by step. Why is consent not important? Why is a trans person's request more important than the consent of someone who does not want to give it? How is this something moral, and not just the complaining of a child like mind that wants control over others?

Gender is an identity based on prejudices. A 'man' by gender has nothing to do with their actual body or sex, but how a person thinks a person of that body and sex should act in public. A scalpel is given to remove that sociological expectation from that sex, and place it onto another. Thus I could be an adult human female but have the gender of a man, or "Act in ways in society in ways that I think only adult human men should act.' And of course, if you elevate gender over your sex, you've fallen into sexism. — Philosophim

Indeed gender is necessarily detached from sex, but appearance as the opposite sex is requisite for trans affirmation. Indeed, that is the objective of medical 'gender affirming care'. As such, although we fabricate genders without reference to sex these days, one needs to reference the natural world for validation. We ignore the reality of sex for 'affirmation' but require it for validation. Of course 'gender affirmation' is different to 'gender validation'. I could say "I am a woman" as if that's an entirely arbitrary category, but as pretty as I am, I am, in fact, male.

In short, we must detach from reality to construct gender ideology, but if a real-living-body doesn't occupy the discursively constructed 'Social Body', the Social Body cannot engage in power dynamics. Hence, we return to sex 'appearances' to convince everyone of what I claim to be.