I'd like some coherent story of what these NHI people are doing here. Are they getting us ready to join the interstellar community? — checking that the quarantine is holding? —eco-bio research? ... — unenlightened
I'm afraid I'm not quite playing the yes/no game, but that's because I'm not sure who is in charge of these revelations, the governments or the aliens? — unenlightened
I'd like some coherent story of what these NHI people are doing here. — unenlightened
It sounds like there's a great deal of amity and cooperation among and between both the NHI groups and the Earth nations (USA, China, Russia, all getting along well on this topic). Is that part of what you want us to imagine? I can't help feeling that needs its own explanation, and it would definitely have a bearing on how a roll-out of disclosure might go. — J
Good questions. Let's say it's something along the lines of what you're suggesting. — schopenhauer1
Have you seen Villeneuve's film Arrival? — Leontiskos
I would ask how the fiduciary duties of democratically elected officials impinge on these epistemic questions. In some cases there would be an obligation to inform one's constituents. I'm not quite sure what those cases would be. — Leontiskos
Getting away from the hypothetical, hasn't Trump leaked or nodded towards some of that classified information? My sense is that there would be a lot of obscurity at each level of the epistemic question of NHI's, such that there would be a significant risk of creating more confusion and disarray if the evidence isn't watertight. This is especially true in the era of deepfakes. It would basically blow the top off the discussions we have been having on faith and belief on the grounds of another's testimony. :lol: — Leontiskos
keeping such an extraordinary discovery from the public would be depriving people of rightful knowledge to the actual ontology of the universe, and the science thereof. — schopenhauer1
People have a right to know the truth regarding something as existentially relevant as other intelligent life in the universe, full stop. If governments have known this and were hiding it, it is a kind of immoral act, whereby people's ontological perspective was not properly informed. People have a right to knowledge of their place in the universe, and the hiding of truth for any purpose would be an incredible act of deception. — schopenhauer1
There is a UAP Taskforce in the US House right now regarding it. These are real Congressional panels. A hearing (under oath) was supposed to take place today but was postponed.
...
Here's some source material so you know I am not bullshitting — schopenhauer1
I'm not really convinced that we have a natural right to any piece of knowledge based merely on its existential or ontological import. I think we might have a positive right to such knowledge, and within a pure democracy that positive right would derive from the will of the people. — Leontiskos
But if you want to dial up the notion of "ontological shock" in the context of natural rights to knowledge, then I wonder if the parent-child relationship is more apt. For example, what is the morality involved in telling your child that Santa Claus does not exist? Or that they were adopted? Or that humans do not come from storks? Or that NHIs are real in the way that the OP describes? — Leontiskos
The parent has a responsibility to the entire welfare of their child, including its developmental stages. Therefore they have a responsibility to balance the goods of knowledge against the dangers of inappropriate appropriations of that knowledge. In the Orthodox tradition Satan orchestrated the Fall precisely by giving Adam and Eve the knowledge of Good and Evil too early and too quickly. That knowledge was always their inheritance, but to receive one's inheritance in an untimely way can be fatal. — Leontiskos
Sure, but how would the "will of the people" be discerned if they never even knew about it? It's a bit of a conundrum. — schopenhauer1
And I tend to agree with the conception of positive rights here. For example, we can talk about the "right to an education." Why should someone not be deprived of a basic public education? Is it just so they have a chance to function within society and gain resources (though that’s a good reason)? Or is there something about knowledge itself that is simply valuable- something that is just good to know? — schopenhauer1
Indeed, good questions. Notice that your questions involve parent-child relationships. The idea of a "white lie" comes to mind here. But should adults be deprived of important knowledge in the same way children are? Who gets to make that decision? As stated, it can't be the "will of the people" in this case. — schopenhauer1
True. So, do you think this would justify holding backdisclosureinformation, given the potential consequences of ontological shock? — schopenhauer1
Of course, the scenario I describe is a classic case of self-interest versus the greater good. The companies and governments working on recovered craft might want the information securely hidden, while keeping such an extraordinary discovery from the public would deprive people of rightful knowledge about the actual nature of the universe and the science behind it. — schopenhauer1
but I tend to see that as a corruption of science precisely because the governments do not have the same goals as the Star Trek explorers. Granted, I think it would be great if our governments were more concerned with speculative knowledge. — Leontiskos
National Security is a solid argument; we don't want the power wielded by our enemies, and the people through their elected representatives want National Security. — Down The Rabbit Hole
In a democratic Republic like the United States I think the people decide who gets to make that decision by electing them. In that sense the will of the people does inform the decision.
Is the President-citizen relationship similar to the parent-child relationship insofar as the former is empowered to decide what sort of information the latter is capable of receiving? I think the two relationships are similar in that way. I think the whole idea of classified information depends on that empowerment. — Leontiskos
Yes, so if the true "Good" in this situation is purely for knowledge's sake, meaning understanding more about the actual ontology of the universe rather than our externally limited view, then it would seem that this reason is instrumental. The question is, what kinds of instrumental values would override the Good of pure understanding? — schopenhauer1
I see that Down The Rabbit Hole said it’s justified when it's for the sake of national security — schopenhauer1
Notice the tension here. You first say that "the people" get to decide — schopenhauer1
I don't see that as a bad form of government, especially if we agree that some information should be classified. — Leontiskos
But the tension still exists. — schopenhauer1
Do you have an idea about how to create a system where no piece of information that should be public would ever be classified? I should think errors are inevitable even before corruption enters the picture. — Leontiskos
Now, IF these intelligent aliens insisted on hanging around earth, I would suspect that they were pursuing a plan to exploit our animal behaviors in some way not to our advantage.. Perhaps they need some low value soldiers in a war. They would have recognized soon that we could be coaxed into berserker behavior. We have reached a large population from which enough crazy berserker-types could be recruited. And if the rate of human death in the alien's war were quite high, so what? What good were we to them?
High levels of intelligence and technology do not tell us much about the state of the aliens' hearts (if they even have hearts). They could be bright, shiny, and ever so smart but still be children of the Prince of Darkness (to employ earthenware). — BC
But can't disclosure happen without revealing full knowledge of potentially destructive capabilities? Surely, they have overstepped their duty to ensure safety, and perhaps have done so for self-interested or even nefarious reasons, rather than acting in the public's interest. — schopenhauer1
There may only be a small risk that our enemies look to capture the technology, either by capturing their own crafts or having agents infiltrate our facilities for the knowledge to reverse engineer it. The rich and those they employ would also be after it, which could then end up with our enemies. — Down The Rabbit Hole
So it's totally reasonable that intelligence regarding NHIs, be it biological, military, political, engineering, or astrophysical information, would stay under-wraps for a good while. I don't think the populace (and this extends to the rest of the world, too) has any intrinsic right to be made aware of information that may compromise not just national, but global security, just because of weighty perceived ontological implications. — Stuart Roberts
Thinking about actual instances of massive classified (usually FOIA-spurred) doc-dumps, like those ceded to the public by the CIA in the past: in my experience, releasing a ton of information at once actually doesn't overload people in the way it seems it would. It usually kind-of numbs all but the keenest of scourers, who then write articles 'dissecting' and disseminating the info in digestible chunks. I bet the number of people who know what MK-ULTRA was far outweighs the number who have read the redacted documentation in its entirety. It seems to trickle down through channels:
Relevantly Credentialed Academics/Government Spokespeople —> General Academics/Science Communicators, people without specialised knowledge but with a higher capacity for digesting thick boilerplate and making sense out of it —> News Media who pick-up those people to pen articles as 'experts' —> The general population who read/watch that news
(This is an assumption I'm making. I feel it's fairly accurate/intuitive, though, and readily observable in modern legal cases and whatnot)
So, maybe an all-at-once dump isn't the worst idea, since existing frameworks that are inherent to a society where not everyone is educated the same kind of dull the edge of such massive information. — Stuart Roberts
"What are the chances we're the only intelligent life in the universe?"
—might shock them. For many people, it might even renew their optimism, though. Just a theory, but if, right now, the U.S. or UK government announced they had reverse-engineered an alien warp-drive or some sort of microwave-propulsion or Alcubierre Drive or something that'd revolutionise and greatly cheapen space travel over the coming decades, making all of our Star-Trek, Star Wars, and otherwise Sci-Fi dreams that much more feasible; allowing for interstellar exploration, taking off global-warming pressure, and generating a paradigm-shift in human technology—people might just be stoked.
Many would be upset, scared, or would go into crisis, but I don't think public reception would be wholly negative. — Stuart Roberts
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